Why we will be paying more for UP items

Over 10 days ago I posted the question on the thread "The UP Logo Issue" on this newsgroup asking if anyone sent a letter to the UP over their new trademark liscensing policy and if so to please share it with us. Thanks to the 2 guys who responded. With all the complaining here on the subject you'd think there would have been dozens of people responding with their letters to the UP to serve as examples for others to write. Bottom line is very few of us will actually do anything about this other than complain. We'll pay the increase. It also is an illustration of why no one should criticize the manufacturers for giving in to the UP and charging us more for product. They know they can just pass the increase to us and we'll just pay it.

I wrote my letter over the weekend to the UP in support of their right to charge a fee for THEIR trademarks but as Jim pointed out it was a petty issue and would probably only generate minimal revenue.

CBix

Reply to
Charles Bix
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I won't write a letter to them because I feel it's a waste of my time. It would get circle filed. What would worry them more than anything would be a pending lawsuit with trial attached. Even if their chances of winning were 99.8% that .2% of a possible loss (not their current trademark but all the previous roads) would worry them more and get more attention than thousands of written letters!

Reply to
Jon Miller

Sure a lawsuit would get their attention but it would also increase their resolve. I believe they are well within their legal right to do what they are doing. Who would spend real money to fight this? Manufacturers? Nope, they are just passing the increase to you and me. Why? Because they know we'll pay it. A lawsuit over a few dollar increase might work against the cable or electric company but not in an industry like this.

For the UP there isn't a downside to this. They could care less if they lose "fans". Fans don't generate revenue, until now that is. Hell they might be happier with no fans. Crews might feel more comfortable with less people standing around the tracks and sneaking into yards.

CBix

Reply to
Charles Bix

What you need to understand is that they would have to start the lawsuit. When they start it then there is the chance (however small) that if it's not done right they might loose. The company seniors probably don't look closely at suits they defend, after all that's what their lawyers are supposed to do. Suits they start and stand a small possibility of loosing will get the attention of the higher ups (IMHO). There are some out there that are just waiting for this to occur.

Reply to
Jon Miller

I wrote an email to UP investor relations over a month ago. I received a response within 4 hours. The IR channel is connected to Wall Street input and gets attention quickly--until it is determined that it is from a whining model railroader. The response I got was essentially we can, we want to, so we will.

The best solution. The ONLY realistic solution is simply to never buy another UP or UP heritage piece of equipment.

Reply to
wolfee

Except there has been only one known manuacturer that has paid. That would be Kato. Everything else is pending some kind of resolution. For your info the Union Pacific is not the only company involved in this current trademark "protection". Goodyear is doing the same for model car tires (or trying to). The Hobby Industry as a whole is working on this onerous problem.

Dave

Reply to
Dave Henk

This situation is the straw that broke Rivarossi's back. They were sued in a French court by CIWL - think Orient Express and Tren Bleu - for not paying a royalty for the use of the trade marked logo on models. The Common Market being what it is, meant that there was a very high possibility that the French court's ruling would be enforced in Italy. The damages were very high and Rivarossi was already in a very tenuous financial situation. End result is that they closed their doors a lot earlier than people thought they would.

Lots of license agreements in place now and they became quite common before the court case. Minimum money changes hands as most companies realize the advertising value of models of their equipment. More of a formal "May I" and "Yes you may". Several companies have special people assigned just for their copyrighted logos etc and help the model companies with drawings, colors, and other prototype info....

+GF+

Reply to
+GF+

The UP probably isn't interested solely on collecting at the moment. First they need to sign the manufacturers and then they will begin collecting. There needs to be a transition time to get the manufacturers on board. Here is a list from the UP website of those who have signed up:

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list is probably out of date.

My money is on no serious legal challenge. Manufacturers will sign up and pass the increase to you and me.

I don't know if this is a problem as much as it is time to pay the companies whose logos have been used for years without any compensation.

Freelancing looks better now doesn't it?

CBix

Reply to
Charles Bix

What about companies such as Oddballs Decals, Overland, Shawmut Car Shops, Testors, Woodland Scenics, et. al. who are listed at the U.P. web site? Their licenses are all pending? I find that rather hard to believe.

Reply to
Mark Mathu

I've been reading about the UP licensing business in the newsgroup for a while, and the whole thing seems kind of silly to me.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I'd heard that Eli Whitney, who had the patent on his cotton gin, would sue anyone making cotton gins for patent infringement. He'd win the case and shut down the other guy's operation. Trouble was, the cotton gin was so easy to make that when he shut one guy down, a couple of more would start up. He eventually had to give up suing people because it took up too much time and money to track them down and go through the process.

With modern computers and printers it seems that practically anyone can now make decals, including UP decals. UP has generously provided artwork on their website for their logos, historic logos, and absorbed road logos at:

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Download it, make copies and decals, share it with your friends, sell a few to cover costs, etc. If UP comes calling, shut down, and show all your friends how to make their own UP decals. If you're scared of the big guy, get the kid down the street to make the decals for you. Big corporations come off with a lot of bad press when they sue a 12 year old.

All that the major manufacturers need to do is sell undecorated models painted "Sickly Yellow," and people can put their own decals on to make UP models. I doubt that UP can claim to own a color.

Don't get mad, guys, just get even.

BTW, I wonder if GE, CBS, and IBM know their logos appear on the UP website.

-- Bill Kaiser snipped-for-privacy@mtholyoke.edu

There are three ways to do a job: good, cheap, and quick. You can have any two. A good, cheap job won't be quick. A good, quick job won't be cheap. A cheap, quick job won't be good.

Reply to
<wkaiser

I posted a list a few weeks ago which indicated that, based on searches of several railroads web sites, it appears at least two other railroads are doing the same thing as UP. I've forgotten now which ones I found, NS and KCS perhaps?

Reply to
Rick Jones

Many railroads do the same thing as UP but simple to control the logos and not as a profit making venture. They want to know what you make and other minor details. Some charge a buck which acknowledges that the RR owns the logos. UP is doing two things different. Trying to make a large profit (based on the businesses) and using logos/names that passed into public domain long ago. Some of the public domain names etc. have already been researched by interested parties and are being used.

Reply to
Jon Miller

Who cares? The accumulated supply of unused decals can supply the hobby's needs for another 50 years. By that time, the UP mainline will be a bike trail and then hobbyists (if any are still alive) can print all the UP logos they want for free.

Want UP to drop the fees? BOYCOTT all manufacturers who license UP products. Their collective howling will be front page news in Omaha and the press coverage and ridicule that follows will be a public relations disaster for them. It won't take long either -- maybe one year at most. Take the family to Disneyworld instead of buying more train products. (And at the same time, buy stuff from vendors who refuse to pay any fees.)

Ptooey

Charles Bix wrote:

Reply to
Achmed Ptooey

OK let me rephrase that for you. None of the mainstream mass producers such as Athearn, Atlas, MDC, Walthers, Accurail, Bowser, Intermountain, or Red Caboose. These folks all have a major stake in how this plays out. The folks currently on the list are at best peripheral players. Overland sells a few brass engines so how many lottry winners would miss them? Testors and Woodland Scenics have next to no stake in the Union Pacific or merger roads. All Testors has to do for example is call UP Armour Yellow and UP Harbormist Gray "Armour Yellow" and "Harbormist Gray" and make no reference to the UP. Woodland Scenics makes basically a dry transfer or two. They could easily drop them and not even blink an eye in the process. Woodland scenics is primarily scenery supplies and Pinewood derby cars.

Reply to
Dave Henk

It was written:

There are always a thousand reasons for doing nothing . . . usually starting with "I'm too busy", "My opinion doesn't count", "No one will pay attention to what I think", "Let someone else do it", and "What difference can one person make?"

They're the same reasons folks give for not voting, not writing letters to their newspapers, not calling their elected representatives, and not sending contributions to causes they support.

What a damn shame.

JR Hill

Reply to
Jim Hill

Exactly, that's the distinction between the other railroads and the UP, is it is about the money for the UP in addition to protecting their logos.

I don't know about the whole public domain thing other than anyone can apply for a trademark, even if it is 100 years old and has been unused for that long. After applying for a trademark there is a period where the trademark is published for opposition. If it is challenged it paves the way for them to be denied the trademark. When I searched on all the UP predecessor railroads I could think of they were either dead trademarks or the UP held them. Someone could apply for those dead trademarks but when they are published for opposition the UP could challenge the application for the trademark because they have proof of ownership of those railroads. I suppose it is possible for the applicant to loose their trademark application and then the UP could apply for the same mark. But really, who other than the railroad is going to apply for old railroad trademarks? Is there money in doing that?

Each trademark costs about $400 to register if you do it yourself and is nonrefundable even if you do not get approved for the trademark.

CBix

Reply to
Charles Bix

I heard this before about public domain but I've probably misquoted. After the legal time runs out and the owning company does nothing to maintain the trademark* (like UP has done with its predecessor RRs) then others can use it. What could be done in a court case is to show usage after UP gave up the right, in this case model RRs, after the time ran out. If UP did nothing to stop usage (like they are trying now, 20-50 years to late) the trademark is in public domain. In other words you can't let it fall into public domain for 50 years and then go backwards and try and claim it. What UP did in filing for all the old RRs is similar to how the patent office now works. Nobody researches anything when something is filed. Government hasn't the staff I guess. A recent example was someone filed and "received" a patent on sound systems as used in model railroads. Their system was advertised as patented and they actually tried to collect from other manufactures that made sound systems. Of course money then became involved as other makers had to hire lawyers. If you notice the outcome was that company no longer advertised it has a patented system, why, the patent was no good and meant nothing.

*I'm not sure trademark is the correct term here. Herald and names are all that are used on model RR equipment. If a "Herald" is defined as a trademark then I would suspect they are interchangeable.
Reply to
Jon Miller

I don't think not writing a letter is the same thing is not doing anything. As an example I personally won't let this die. I will continue to email, talk to people, and would even donate to a legal expense fund if one of the manufacture would defend their use of names, herald, etc. in court (assume UP even filed). Someone mentioned the list on the UP site was out of date. I don't think so and what is/are missing are most of the model RR manufactures. Someone mentioned Kato signed up but don't see their name there. What is happening now is that everyone is waiting for UP to do something. The only thing I've heard that they have done so far was send a letter to Champ decals and as the owner recently passed away I don't see that company signed up either. Good for UP, threaten an old man, who was apparently not in good health, and ran a printing business in his garage. Shows their true colors!

Reply to
Jon Miller

Another thought on this subject is as follows. I believe UP would need to file in civil court. Usually in civil court a judge hears the case if you want a very good legal decision but if you want an emotional outcome you probably would want a jury. A auto injury accident would be an example of a jury wanted. Some legal corporate wrangling would probably want a judge to decide. I think the defendant has the choice but a lawyer would have to explain this Now I'm sure if UP filed suit the poor little model RR manufacture (and maybe the not so poor) would want a jury. Reason would be to show the models, all the magazines from years past, catalogs from years past, etc. And in a case like this there is always the possibility of jury nullification (the OJ case is the most recent big example). It's rare but for this particular case it might be something to shoot for. IMHO UP stands a lot to lose here if they file suit which is probably why they haven't yet. The main problem here is UP has lots of staff lawyers and the model RR defendant doesn't! If UP ever does file suit I would suggest the formation of a legal aid fund for whoever they sue!

Reply to
Jon Miller

If the "expired" trademark defense is a strong defensive position then you definitely want the judge ... if it's a judge who is well versed in that particular area of the law.

There were some pretty serious changes in the copyright (or was it trademark?) area in the past few years. How does that affect the "lost to public domain" facet of this?? I have no idea.

Paul

Reply to
Paul Newhouse

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