Yes many (most) of the UP trademarks have logos. You can get a trademark on a logo, i.e. the various UP shields, or on a slogan or name. There are all limitations to certain words within slogans. For example I am sure that for Union Pacific the legal wording states that the Union Pacific does not claim exclusive right to the words "Union" and also "Pacific" but together they can be trademarked for use as described in the trademark description.
CBix
I hear what you are saying but I see the manufacturer losing if the years of use with no compensation was their defense. That sounds like "we've been using their logos without their authorization or compensating them for years and we want to continue to do it even though they own it and make nothing on it from our sales."
Personally I would not be surprised if a jury found in favor of the Union Pacific in that scenario.
I think the UP is going to play nice until someone really gets under their skin. Then they'll let loose perhaps as an example.
CBix
of use with no compensation was their defense< I'm going to call the items "markings". The argument here is that UP has not used these markings (and I'm talking about the RRs of the past not any current UP marking) and not defended them and so they are in public domain. I don't think there is any argument in court at all about the current UP "markings"!
As you, or someone else already pointed out, this forum isn't really where the battle will be fought and we're not the players in it. Just because there is no news doesn't mean nothing is happening, or will happen. My biggest concern is the lack of unity among the manufacturers - even those who want to resist apparently can't agree on a plan. But we'll see. It may end up being every man(ufacturer) for himself, in which case some companies may strike better deals with UP than the boilerplate. Some already have...
Andy
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You are *assuming* "without authorization. What if someone produces a
50-year old piece of paper giving such authorization? Or a 100 year old piece of paper? When were the first model trains produced, and what companies from then are still around?Andy
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Don't know I'm not a lawyer but I play one on newsgroups. First I doubt any company would give a blanket, unlimited, and unconditional letter of authorization to use a trademark. I'd be surprised if any railroad ever wrote such a letter. Maybe they have but it would surprise me. Second how many MRR manufacturers are still around from
50 years ago? Third of those left how many could actually find and produce a letter written 50 years ago?I know it could have been less than 50 years ago. I just see the manufacturers not winning a battle against the railroads.
CBix
They don't have to win. Just avoid losing in a really ugly and expensive way... like by caving in now.
Andy
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Excellent point, what about a letter form the railroads saying stop using the logos. That has probably never happened.
Sure there is historical precedence to manufacturers using railroad logos without payment. As much as I dislike it as a paying model railroader the railroads do have to protect their logos, particularly in an environment where anyone can set up an anti-railroad website and plaster the railroads logos all over it. For example: UPsucks.com, or CSXsucks.com or some other non-complimentary site. The UP wants to go further than that by extracting revenue from an ash tray and jockey shorts with a UP logo. On one hand I don't like is as Joe Consumer but from the railroads point of view they aren't in business to make me happy, I don't ship anything on their railroad, they want to increase revenues and if there is enough money in they will continue it and it will expand to other railroads.
CBix
I'm still WATCHING for when the UP will take a beating in the press and from stockholders over this.
You need a life then if this is how you spend your time...........
LOL - you'll be watching for a long long time.
CBix
"Sure there is historical precedence to manufacturers using railroad logos without payment. As much as I dislike it as a paying model railroader the railroads do have to protect their logos, particularly in an environment where anyone can set up an anti-railroad website and plaster the railroads logos all over it. For example: UPsucks.com, or CSXsucks.com or some other non-complimentary site."
But since obstensively people who do this aren't making any money from these sites and they can argue that they have a right to use such things under fair use doctrine since they are using them to lampoon the orginal.
How about a UP winged shield saying Union Pacific Sucks instead of just Union Pacific?
Eric
Has anybody thought of boycotting UP items?? John Hudson. it worked back in the 60's and 70's with lettuce and the United Farm Workers.
I doubt that it will have any real impact. Even if another UP model/toy/collectible UP branded train is never sold. It's not a significant source of income for UP.
Paul
Nor will it be even if they collect royalties on everything. The question is, when will the figure this out?
Andy
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Most of the guys I know are indifferent with the potential increases. Of course they are in higher income brackets and budget more for the hobby.
CBix
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