DCC & N_Gauge

Hi Guy

Been away from model rail for quite a few years now

Thinking of getting back into it now that I am retired and with plenty of time on my hands

I will need to go the N-Gauge route because of size constraints, and have a couple of hopefully quick questions

I am interested in using a DCC controller, can this be done with N-Gauge.

If yes is the DCC system standard, i.e. will any controller work with any chip. Would the Hornby system work with N-Gauge chips made by someone else.

Lastly I am in Sheerness Kent, anyone know of any clubs close by.

Thanks

Paul

Reply to
Paul
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Yes. But it's best to buy locos with installed decoders (chips). Adding a decoder to a non-DCC loco is troublesome in any scale, since it usually requires machining away bits of the chassis or weight(s)in order to make space for the decoder. It's worse in N scale. N "DCC ready" locos often required special _small_ decoders, which may not be easy to find.

Any NMRA compliant controllers and chips will work together. Hornby's system is NMRA compliant, so any NMRA compliant controller will work properly with it (direction, speed, lights).

There is a catch, however: many of the Control Variables (CVs) are not assigned in a standardised way, and different manufacturers have used different CVs for controlling special functions. However, the manuals list which CV does what, and what values to program it for.

Try googling. I used "model railway clubs in Kent england" and found:

Folkestone, Hythe and District MRC:

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Listing of MRCs in England (lots of pages, this is page 1):
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cheers,

wolf k.

Reply to
Wolf K

Many thanks

Most helpful

Paul

Reply to
Paul

Yes.

But, some N locos, notably some of Farish' steam outline range, are awkward due to the way the chassis is constructed. The brush gear needs to be isolated from the wheels, which requires modifications to be made. There are kits of bits to do this, such as a "digihat".

Some locos, notably some of the more recent diesel outline and a handful of steam, come with NEM651 sockets so are a doddle to install decoders.

Others require "hardwiring" where you install the decoder yourself with wires to various places. Some require modification to fit a chip, others just require choosing the right size and shape of chip to fit.

Good model shops should be able to do this for you if you don't feel confident.

Chip quality varies, and the "right" chip for a locomotive is often a matter of debate. In general, paying a bit more does get better chips, my own preference after some considerable testing, is Zimo or CT Elektronik.

Yes. Though I wouldn't recommend the Hornby system, it seems horribly cryptic to do anything with it.

I would recommend finding a dealer with a decent range of systems to try out. I put the threshold at five different makers and knowing the weaknesses of each system on offer (because all have weaknesses, the trick is finding one where the weaknesses are irrelevant to your needs).

Finding a dealer may involve travelling a significant distance, the ones I am aware of are in the middle of England, so well over 100 miles from Kent.

Sorry, can't help with that.

- Nigel

Reply to
Nigel Cliffe

That's the worst possible choice meaning you are stuck with whatever the manufacturer chooses to use. Look at the problems with Hornby ready fitted decoders.

Assuming you intend to model UK outline, then you would be stuck with the sole DCC fitted offering from Peco.

Don't let Wolf's comments put you off. They do seem somewhat ill- informed.

Older, pre-DCC locos can be difficult but various kits are available for, e.g., Farish steam outline, to make it easier. Many, many locos, including UK outline N can be converted without machining the chassis. More recent ones are designed to make wiring the decoder easy by providing convenient solder pads on the lighting PCB. Even more recent ones have sockets to make it a simple job of plugging in your chosen decoder.

All the major brands have readily available small or micro decoders suitable for N gauge, they just cost a little more. Even the Farish 04 diesel shunter is relatively straightforward job.

Avoid the first and second generation Hornby decoders like the plague. I'm not sure about the Saphire (is it available yet?). I would stick with Lenz, TCS, CT elektronik or Zimo.

I suggest you join the DCCUK Yahoo group. Introduce yourself and ask for an invite to go and play with some different systems.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

[snip useful info]

Yes, I wasn't aware that the DCC offerings in UK outline N lagged so far behind the DCC offerings in other outlines. Eg, most US/Canadian Bachmann N is now available DCC ready or DCC On Board.

Well, I think by this time next year you'll see a lot more DCC/DCCReady N UK outline. So OP has a lot of good stuff to look forward to, I think. ;-)

But you do agree with me that an older loco can be a bear to convert to DCC.

cheers,

wolf k.

Reply to
Wolf K

I'm not totally convinced that all DCC is equal. I can't prove it but I have had experiences which lead me to believe that some DCC controllers work better with certain chips than others. This should NOT be an issue but.....

Reply to
Graham Harrison

Two major "within specs" issues exist: a) Speed steps supported. One or two older (or dead cheap) controllers (eg. Bachmann EZ) only work on 28 speed steps, yet decoders support 128. This can make some locos look "notchy" when running, and can be a pig to dial out with speed curves, acceleration settings, etc.. (been there, tried to see what was possible).

b) Track voltage. There is considerable variation in track voltage between systems, and some systems have user-control of the track voltage. Generally, more volts = faster running. Also, normal advice for N is to aim for a system with a lower than average track voltage.

One or two controllers have reputations for being "outside DCC specification" and thus not working correctly. The original Hornby Select was one (NOT the Elite), and I don't know if the Select has been corrected.

And there are numerous occaisional issues where certain controllers don't necessarily send commands in the same way as others, or certain decoders have apparently spontaneous faults (run-aways, loose settings, etc.. ). They don't happen that often, many people never see them, but if you get one it can be difficult to sort out the blame and find the right changes to make.

- Nigel

Reply to
Nigel Cliffe

There is one other issue, and that's the shape and cleanliness of the signals. They are supposed to be square wave, but of course in practice this doesn't happen. Some controllers produce wave forms that are sloppy enough to make some decoders hiccup. In addition, "echo" occurs, because of the way bus wires are connected to each other and the rails. There should be a terminator at the end of each bus. Echoes can interfere with the signal, too. (Source: article in NMRA's Scale Rails within the last year - don't have the issue any more.)

HTH

wolf k.

Reply to
Wolf K

Also what does the controller do during power up/down. Advice for ZTC command station users (from ZTC) is to fit an isolating switch and disconnect during power-up/down, or when restoring popwer after a shutdown due to overload. The ZTC system does not control the outputs correctly and can put out enough crap to confuse some decoders, causing Lenz decoders to runaway, for example.

Strictly speaking they're filters, not terminators and are not always neccessary, depending on the quality and length of wiring.

For a terminator to be effective, the bus wiring would need to be a known, controlled impedance and the terminator matched to that impedance. The NMRA, of all people, ought to know better! It's simply not sensible to treat a DCC bus as a transmission line, since the loads keep moving and every single layout would be different and require individual solutions!

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

Man at B&Q wrote: [...]

The authors merely reported on their observations on a "typical" layout

- with multiple routes, and branching busses. (They used an oscilloscope.) The effect of the terminator varied for different controllers. I don't know much about electronics, but that does seem odd to me.

cheers,

wolf k.

Reply to
Wolf K

What effect were they measuring? The usual "terminator" recommended for DCC is a resistor and capacitor in series across the track. The capacitor presents a low impedance to any high frequency ringing and cleans up the signal. The resistor limits the current.

The output stage of the controller will determine the edge rate, voltage and cleanliness of the DCC waveform before it is filtered by the "terminator".

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

"Echo", which showed up as a ripple in the ave after the edge. Does that make sense to you?

IIRC, that's what they had. But it was a purchased item, as recommended by (some) DCC manufacturers. Don't know the specs.

I'm sorry I can't tell you more, I've long since passed that issue of Scale Rails on to others.

cheers,

wolf k.

Reply to
Wolf K

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