Engines in goods sheds query

Looking at track plans there seems to be no way to avoid engines passing through goods sheds at some locations (the covered type with doors at each end that is).
There was definately a prohibition on gunpowder vans entering sheds and I seem to remember reading somewhere about a 'prohibition' on engines passing through sheds due to the risk of sparks setting fire to the rafters and/or goods on the internal platform.
Anyone know if engines were run through sheds in practice (perhaps with the steam shut off to prevent sparks or some such)?
I have trawled through all the litereature I have access to and cannot find any mention of this.
Regards
Mike

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They could use a 'reach wagon' to allow them to attach to wagons actually inside (or beyond) a good shed, but I can't give an authoritive answer to your question.
Some wagons could also be shunted by horses, capstans or even manually.
John.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:17:07 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote:
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In my experience , steam locomotives did not pass into goods sheds. Any movements within the building ( or under canopies such as at dockside sidings) were worked with capstans - usually water hydraulic powered- or with horses. In later days I have observed ex road vehicles modified to shoulder or tug wagons. Small diesels however ,I have seen inside.
Peter A Montarlot

snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote in
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Not quite the same thing but after the line was closed by Beeching there was for quite some time a large tank engine stored in the goods shed at Helmshore, it didn't dissapear until the line was finally lifted in the early 70s.
Back on topic, I'm sure that there was at least one shed on the Settle and Carlisle, where engines were permitted inside, sure I read it in a book recently. I have seen other other occassional references to this practice elsewhere but I can't bring them to mind at the moment.

On 26 Mar 2006 16:49:34 GMT, Chris Wilson
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Cheers chaps - If I come across anything definitive I'll post it in a new thread
Regards
Mike

On 26 Mar 2006 16:49:34 GMT, Chris Wilson
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One clue - An auction site was selling . . .
A GWR wooden notice with cast letters “No Engine To Enter This Shed”. 31” square. In original condition.
Doesn't specify goods shed but that seems likely
Regards
Mike

snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote in
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"Stations and Structures of the Settle and Carlisle Railway", V R Anderson and G K Fox
Pages aren't numbered however page relating to Lazonby, shows image of Lazonby Goods Shed, cattle trucks and other stock clearly parked on what would appear to be a run-around (from the track plan) outside dated 1913. Caption for plate 186 on this page reads ...
"... The wheel scotch, just outside the shed door was an item usually provided on the rail at each end of the shed where through running was allowed ..."
Does that help?

Chris Wilson wrote:
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Very interesting Chris, as you highlight a discrepancy between the signalling diagram and the track plan (fig 71 one page back). Fig 72 (sig diagram) clearly indicates a double slip at the right hand end whereas fig 71 (dated 1911) shows a 3 way point.
Fig 71 certainly reveals that the track with the cattle wagons on it is the siding behind the goods shed and *not* the loop next to the Down line. This siding is *not* shown on the signalling diagram fig 72 which is a drawing "based on information available for 1955".
It would appear that either something is wrong or that changes were carried out between 1911 & 1955 which led to the cattle wagon siding being removed.
Regards
Kevin Martin

If anyone has images of the capstans or other methods used to draw engines into a shed I would appreciate it
Thanks
Steve
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On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 23:58:19 +1100, "mindesign"
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The capstans were used to move the wagons not (AFAIK) the engines, they were (typically) about a eighteen inches high, a vertical cylinder with a slightly pinched centre sitting on a rectangular plate. The top of the cylinder was about ten inches across, these were powered by various means including electric motors and hydraulic motors. The rope was attached to the wagon (there were holes in the chassis or metal loops on the chassis sides known as 'horse hooks' used for attaching horses, these were commonly used for capstan working), the shunter would throw a couple of turns over the capstan so the wagon was drawn along (capstans ran all the time when shunting was in progress). As the wagon approached the desired point the rop was cast off the capstan. When an engine had to be moved with no fire in the boiler one option was to attach it to a working engine and drag it back and fore with the steam valves set for the opposite direction of travel - this pumped air into the cylinder and allowed the engine to make its way (for example) onto the turn table and then into the shed.
What I have on capstans . . .
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/2-track/02track2.htm
Its near the beginning of the section
HTH
Mike

On 27 Mar 2006 01:13:07 GMT, Chris Wilson
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Thanks Chris - I get the impression that it was allowed in some sheds but not others, possibly because of the design of the building (roof trusses etc.)
I will keep digging
Regards
Mike

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Also used at the top of the ramps to coaling stages. The preserved stage at Didcot has one such. In this case it would have been for weight restriction reasons - the ramp was usually well-rammed rubble (sometimes brick arches) but the stage was brick with a void under the concrete deck, used as a store. It could hold a couple of 10T wagons but not a loco.
A significant number of horses were employed by BR even, as they were versatile and low-maintenance power. The last one retired from Newmarket (appropriately) in about 1967, since the station site there is pretty cramped and single track in and out plus the Warren Hill tunnel, so shunting with loco movements was a right pain. Come to that, it's not impossible to move single wagons by pinchbars under the wheel treads, though I imagine that was banned as regular practice by union decree, as most injuries happened in goods yards. In its last months of operation (late 2004) I visited the quarry line at Barrington cement works and that still fed wagons into the chalk tippler by the time-honoured method of an unfitted wagon being unhooked by a shunting pole and rolled down a slight gradient with a bod walking alongside holding the brake lever with a brake stick. After tippling it was then gravity-rolled out the other end and reconnected into the empties rake (I think they ran five wagons at a time) which was then coupled up to the loco and worked down to the chalkface again. I got a ride in the cab of one, a Hill Vanguard. Never again: gone gone gone... only glad I got some photos, wish I'd taken a dozen more rolls of film. (And you try working out a way to model that activity - it might be doable with the wagons independently powered with that High Level drive gizmo for faking loose shunting, but it doesn't look the same without the human activity alongside).
Tony Clarke

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:17:07 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@notigg.not.no wrote:
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I don't know where you are mike but Bristol City Docks at Princes Wharf and at Z shed at Canon's Marsh still had some of these devices 12 years ago. The Bristol Archive may be able to help you.
http://www.bristol-rail.co.uk/kingslandroad2.php
They are a very helpful crowd.
Peter A Montarlot

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:26:50 +0200, peter abraham
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This Mike is in Manchester ('ub of the western world) and thanks for the link
Mike