Garden railways



I don't understand. There's no alternative in the line I replied to. I shall say that to those who model in P4 and S7, but I shan't say anything to those who come inverted.
--
Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
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:Jerry: wrote:

Huhh, you're saying that scale models are not scale models because they have the wheels set at the wrong spacing??? There goes the whole UK OO model industry! ;-)
Regards, Greg.P.
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Actually, as I've been trying to say, there goes the worldwide model industry! ;-)

--
Jane
British OO, American and Australian HO, and DCC in the garden
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Jane Sullivan wrote:

Perhaps I'll go back to model aeroplanes! =8^)
Right now I'm taking a soggy brain break from CAD designing model kits for production, so I'm well aware of the compromises involved in "scale" models. My aim is to make the models as close to scale reproductions while making them suitable for model railway operation as well as suitable for production with the equipment I have available to me. Some of those compromises, such as wheel standards and clearances add together to cause obvious distortions from scale, while others such as couplings blow the whole appearance, but generally I aim at prototypical appearance. Narrowing the gauge by 12% (18.83>16.5) would blow the whole design!
Regards, Greg.P.
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No, not at all, those who wish to model to as close to exact as possible will do so in P4. You simply can't find a clue or you're just trolling - so what are you, and clueless cretin or a clueless troll?...
I was pointing out that no one needs to reinvent the wheel so do what you keep suggesting vast numbers of people want to do what they already can.
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:Jerry: wrote:

Trolling? Well, yes. =8^)> I realize that this discussion won't lead anywhere because the UK scale is 4mm:1ft. I've nothing against people doing ridiculous things so long as they recognise that they are.

Sure, and I'm pointing out that the UK model railway industry has painted itself into a corner, just as it did in the 1960s with Hornby Dublo/Trix/Tri-ang/mettatoy(?). The outcome of that situation was that all four comercial companies folded. It's easy to imagine that your way of modelling is the way everyone models. (I can say that because I've been there, done that) However, the model market is divided into (at least) three groups: - toy train operators. - scale modellers. - collectors.
Of the firms from the 1960s, only Tri-ang survived, with new owners but with the same products. That suggests to me that the first group is the biggest or most influential Judging by the present UK markets, with models that look superb but often won't survive real and long-term operating, the "collectors" are the second biggest group. That leaves you in the third or least popular group.
Reading manufacturers interviews in the model mags and perusing their catalogues, the logic behined their choices of models seems to be along the lines of: we need a big express loco, a smaller express loco, a small tank loco, a bigger tank loco, a medium goods loco ... not, we need an LMS + GWR + LMS + SR + BR heavy Goods locos. When modellers demand a specific type of loco the manufacturers appear to consider it in terms of their current range, because a seconf small tank loco might well take sales away from their current offerings. An L&YR 2-4-2T isn't a likely candidate if they already offer a GWR 2-4-2T but it might be if their competitor already has the GWR 2-4-2T.
Greg.P.
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<snip>
Glade to know that you know that you are being ridiculous, what do you not understand about the that there is no problem in the UK, those who want to model in P4 or EM can do so and still use 99pc of a RTR model if they so with, those who wish to model in 00 can do so, those who just want to play trains whilst mixing and matching their collection can do so - even to the extent that Bern loading gauge stock will fit through 4mm = 1ft bridges and tunnels etc.

Not because they sold 4mm = 1ft models though, Hornby-Doubo folded due to production costs and sticking with outmoded *technology* (3-rail), Trix folded in the UK because they tried - more or less - what you are suggesting, Tri-ang and Triang-Hornby folded due to their parent companies (ROVEX) failings - indeed their model/toy train business was still trading and as sold very quickly by the administrators, as for the last am not sure if you mean Playmobil or Palitoy (TA Mainline model railways) - the latter failed again due to the parent company and not due to the model railway division, indeed many of the models live on, although some have been retooled. To complete the picture, Airfix Model Railways (later called GMR) folded due to the failings of the parent company, again many of their 4mm model railway items live on in either the ranges of Bachmann or Hornby.
The UK model industry has never been so health as it is now!

<the rest of yopur ignorant bollocks snipped>
As I keep saying, you really don't understand the UK model railway market... :~(
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:Jerry: wrote:

Those British products no longer exist.

The UK industry now barely exists! What you have is UK marketting divisions of Chinese manufacturers.

Sure, but I'm left wondering what it is that differs from the rest of the world, and also why it is that you think you can continue with such an oddity as OO when the rest of the world uses HO. It's as if you Brits carried on with Sinclair computers and BASIC when the rest of the World went IBM and Windows.
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<snip more bollocks trolling>
Oh F*** off troll.
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wrote:

Duh. Because British modellers already have 4mm stock.
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"Christopher A. Lee" wrote:

We've established that fact. What I've postulated is that the manufacturers would sell far more UK models outside the UK if they were HO scale. Given that US and European models have sold well in the UK for the last 40+ years, don't you think that European and US modellers might buy a few UK HO models if they existed? You can't have that low an opinion of UK prototype?
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wrote:

Only the few additional HO ones. British modellers wouldn't buy them.

Idiot.
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"Christopher A. Lee" wrote:

<sheesh> If the UK model railway community bought HO instead of OO then the sales would be combined, and considerably larger than for just OO.

I'm an idiot because you want to continue with an odd scale which cuts you off from the rest of the World's model and accessory production ...
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wrote:

But you know they're not going to, because thay already have 4mm aren't going to do a mix'n'match.
Stop pretending.
Lima and Palitoy both made that mistake a long time ago.
And somebody mentioned Trix, with their own intermediate scale.

And a liar as well now.
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"Christopher A. Lee" wrote:

I don't seem to have got my point across to you!
Your British models would be saleable outside the UK if they were to an internationally acceptable scale. Total sales would rise and your prices would drop.

Trix and Rivarossi both made 3.8mm/foot models.

That's getting a bit rude. Are you suggesting you don't care about the scale difference between HO and OO and that you happily accept HO scale models in your collection and on your layout? That would blow your argument.
Regards, Greg.P.
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:

That's just it, Lima, Palitoy, Trix, Lima, Rivarossi etc, didn't make HO models. All of them made terribly short (height wise), wide models that looked nothing like the prototype, because they were so badly distorted.
Kevin Martin
--
To Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form

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On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:52:35 +1000, Kevin Martin

Which wasn't the main problem. So was much of the 4mm stuff of the time.

And that's what HO is, alongside OO.
Is your pickup goods going to contain a mixture of HO and OO wagons? When Lima did HO British stuff that's what you saw on some people's layouts before they learned from their mistake.
Somebody mentioned an HO Flying Scotsman.
For it to sell here they would have to also supply HO Gresley, Thompson or BR coaches, matching freight and tank engines, matching wagons and brake vans.
In short, a complete system.
And only new modellers will buy it because everybody else already has a 4mm collection.
And unless they are complete newbies, potential buyers aren't going to lock themselves into a system from a single supplier. Remember Triang TNT.
Somebody mentioned accessories. Those are the least of the problem. People, some buildings etc can be mixed and matched. Some of my favourite layouts in 7mm scale make streets look longer by tapering the scale of the buildings. Ditchling Green does this on its high street. But that's done by hand with a continual decrease, even in the same building.
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I bought a couple of Trix coaches once - cheap nowhere near any 4mm models - too small!!!!
Can't remember if I still have them or not, if I have - I think I will sell them
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Martin wrote:

They are 3.8mm scale, closer to OO than HO, so you can't sell them to me :-(
When they were first introduced they were to a superior standard than any other proprietry UK (OO) coaches. Rivarossi fell into the same trap with their Royal Scot and LMS coaches, which were beautiful models, but to 1:80 scale.
Regards, Greg.P. NZ
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"Christopher A. Lee" wrote:

That doesn't work for HO modellers - unless of course one has a large scenic area in front of one's layout so that the trains are reduced scale to the foreground. :-) You're absolutely right that one needs more than a loco and track to build a layout, or in Fleischmann's case more than a Western Region Loco and three Southern Region coaches.
Regards, Greg.P.
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