GWR 0-6-0 'tram' engine

Just got an e-mail from a chap who doesnt have newsgroup access, he has found a photo of a GWR 0-6-0 tank engine with a passenger coach body added
over the top sandwiched between pairs of passenger coaches to form a form of multiple unit. The photo dates from about 1901 and he wants to build a 7mm scale model of the set.
He sent a drawing, but I have no way of uploading it from where I am, the wheelbase is 2 x 7'4" (14' 8" across the set), the drawing states the spacing from the outer axles to some unspecified point on the adjoining coaches (possibly the buffer beam) as 13' 4" at the smoke box end and 14' 3" at the cab end, the sides are paneled with three large oblong panels in the lower half and two smaller roughly square panels above each. There is a sliding hatch on the rood at the smoke box end, located above the front pair of wheels which looks to be about 18" square that slides forward to open.
He asked if I had any information on the thing but I am away from home for a bit and don't have access to my books. I don't remember seeing this one before (but it's a while since I spent time browsing), I don't think it is in Great Western Way, GWR Engine Sheds, GWR Country Stations or any of the other GWR books I have.
There were quite a number of 'railmotors' at around this time, but I don't remember seeing anything on this one before.
Anyone know anything about this beast? Any book references?
Regards
Mike
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On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 16:40:40 +0100, "Mike Smith"

It was a regular auto-fitted tank engine, "disguised" in dummy coach work, working in a normal push-pull configuration between a pair of ordinary auto-trailers.
Remember that these could go either in front of or behind the engine.
Railmotors had increased traffic on many branches but paradoxically weren't up to the increased traffic although they could work with auto-trailers.
A regular small engine like a 517 (the 1400 was an up to date version) or an 850 or 2021 were found to be more useful with greater power and flexibility. For a while the GWR tried discussing these to make them look like rail motors.
There are photographs and drawings of the one you describe including "under the covers" in volume 2 of Russell's "Pictorial Record of Great Western Engines, pages 97 to 99.
The engine itself is a slightly modified 2021 class saddle tank, number 2120, with a shorter, squarish tank to fit inside the coach work, and a cab shaped to match it. A friend back in England built one in 7mm scale, based on the Eric Underhill / ABS Zero Zephyr 2021 saddle tank. He made a master for the tank and had somebody cast it in resin to match the ABS kit, with a scratch built cab but this was many years ago and I don't know he still has it (the master).
There were other attempts to disguise engines doing this role, including a chocolate brown 517 and even a brown and cream one. My friend has also modeled these and they look rather good although I don't know how the cream looked after it got dirty.

Drop me an email off-list if can't beg, borrow or steal the book. It should be on every GWR modeller's shelf. It is out of print but some of your GWR enthusiast friends probably have it.

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wrote:

Blimey that was quick! Many thanks for the detailed response, I have passed on the info, I don't have the book (got side tracked into light railways fairly early on, then switched to diesels for better running) but I think I know someone who does..
Regards
Mike
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On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 19:34:06 +0100, "Mike Smith"
You're welcome.
If you have any more GWR queries or requests you might consider subscribing to the GWR-elist on yahoo groups. There are some major experts there including some well known authors.
Chris

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wrote:

I'll mention it to him, personally I prefer Usenet, though it's a shadow of its former self these days.
Regards
Mike
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wrote:

Have passed on the rest of this thread, meanwhile got a reply to the first set of info - Quote . . .
Thanks very much for that. It has put more meat on the bones. The drawing I have is from Russells "Pictorial Record of Great Western Engines." It wasn't very clear about the coaches, implying it ran with 2 in front and 2 behind. There is a representation of a coach each side of the loco in the drawing, but only shows the first 9ft or so. I did wonder if they were short 6 wheelers to reflect the stunted 'carriage' (loco) in the middle. However Christopher says they were normal auto-trailers so that is a result! Thanks again.
David
Unquote
I do love Usenet.
Regards
Mike
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On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:17:45 +0100, "Mike Smith"

The mechanical limitations of the control gear meant that it was only supposed to be operated through a maximum of two trailers. So if you had three or four then the engine had to be in the middle.
However there are rare photographs where this rule was broken. In the book on the Exe Valley line there is a picture of an engine pushing three.
You sometimes see the engine in the middle of two trailers, especially in preservation. Crews preferred not to do this because it meant harder work to remove the engine from the train for coal.
There were also some rather interesting conversions of regular stock to auto-trailers. For example the Clifton Downs (and similar) sets which were converted from low-roofed compartment stock and make very attractive vehicles. Also some of the early corridor stock with the offset gangway connections had them removed and were converted to trailers.

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wrote:

Many thanks, I'll pass it over, but it's got me thinking . . .
This could get expensive!
Regards
Mike
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On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 16:40:40 +0100, "Mike Smith"

Two engines of the 2021 Class 0-6-0Ts - numbers 2120 and 2140 were fitted in 1906 with push-pull gear and clad in dummy coachwork to match contemporary push-pull auto coaches. They were used in the Plymouth area and often worked in the midlle of a four coach auto set, two coaches either side. The dummy coachwork was removed around 1911.
Info from RCTS Locos of the GWR Part 5.
David
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The LNER site has some interesting details on Railmotors plus some experimental loco's http://www.lner.info/locos/W/w1.shtml and http://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/gnr_railmotor.shtml
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On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:45:58 -0700 (PDT), Dragon Heart

One of the more interesting rail motors was more like a steam multiple unit, built by Metro-Cammell and Sentinel in 1951 with ten sold to Egypt.
It was a 3-car articulated unit with a high pressure 3-drum water tube boiler, oil fired, hydraulic operation of the regulator and reverser with indicator lights in each cab.
http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/smu.htm
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On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:07:25 -0400, Christopher A. Lee

Interesting device. One has to wonder though if the Egyptians wanted a steam unit and asked for one or were they offered a cheap deal that was difficult to refuse. Promoting a dying technology when Diesels had already been in use elswher for nearly 20 years may not have been that good for British industry in the long term.
G.Harman
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On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 10:06:51 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Perhaps, but don't forget that was the year they built the first of the BR standards.

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On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 06:28:54 -0400, Christopher A. Lee

Well yes but as I understand it that was partly because Britain could not afford to import costly oil and still had plenty of Coal,plus the Political circumstances that went along with that. Not sure of the state of the Oil industry in Egypt in the late forties but I would guess it was more developed than any coal resource. The unit may have been hopelesly impractical as a coal burner anyway so at least being oil fired made it usable and on local fuel.It just seems strange that nobody thought that if you are going to use oil in a small train you might as well use internal combustion with all its advantages. I accept that at the time there was still a place for oil fired steam where a large output power output was required as in some of the last North American steam. * *To get back on topic for models I've just done the maiden run of an HO Challenger I treated myself to around the garden loop. Needed something with a bit of weight and traction and current colllection to to haul the varous track cleaner cars after Winter . It performed admirably. Always thought sound was a gimmick until next doors cat was actually shifted by the whistle.
G.harman
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I knew there was a good reason for having sound in my locomotives.

--
Jane
OO/HO and DCC in the garden
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But assuming all fittings present its a lot cheaper if can get cat shafted by the whistle.
Cheers, Simon
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In addition to what's been already posted the GWR hid a 0-6-0 inside a coach body for use on Royal trains at Windsor. Sorry I don't have the reference to hand - it's in the garage where I keep all my train stuff but next time I'm in there I'll dig it out.
--
All the best,

Chris

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Cheers Chris - The chap has a website (bit OTT design wise, click on the subject, click on the orange arrow to flip it over, then click in the bottom left to enter the gallery) - Some very impressive 7mm stuff in the models section.
www.davidhalliwell.co.uk
Regards
Mike
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Bloody website made me feel seasick*, I had to ditch it after about 10 seconds and don't imagine I will be going back for another visit!
David
*which travelling on ships has never done.
--
David Littlewood

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