On the model side I am told Dapol in conjunction with one model shop are
to produce a limited edition 4mm model of ?Leader?. I wish them
every success, one thing we can be certain of, the model is likely to
behave far better than the prototype ever did.
Leader was an innovative design, and almost inevitably had faults that it
might have been possible to cure. BR chopped the finance before this could
happen. Who knows what success might have achieved if the Bulleid &
Southern Railway had continued for a few more years ?
Bevan
European railways had already demonstrated that diesel/electric was the
way to go - the only real question is why BR built any steam engines at
all, except that Riddles fancied having a go at doing one or two. Leader
was indeed a revolutionary idea, but would have had to be super-efficient
to cover the costs of coal distribution and handling alone, never mind
the operating costs (BR never intended having double manning on diesel/
electric, it was the Unions that forced that) and the huge support
network required simply to run the engines, never mind the trains.
The steam era was a great "romantic" era (except for those who had to
work every day with it, especially the unsung ones like the boiler
cleaners who had a life expectancy of diddly-squat) but it's day had
already passed before WWII (LMS 10000 etc). Likewise what one may call
the "engines, coaches and freight" which I get all misty-eyed about has
gone and the railway, like happened to so many steam types, has moved on
and become a source of total disinterest with all the EMU/DMU's - but if
it doesn't change it will die.
Sorry to be downer, but times change.
Cheers
Richard
Well, I suppose if you spent unlimited funds you "might" of done
something, but really was it worth the effort? It wasn't like they
almost worked, some of the problems were fundamental to the design -
flames coming out of the firebox into the cramped fireman's cab, is one
that under today's safety laws would cause it to be abandoned forthwith.
Kevin Martin
Personally I'd like to have a model available of Francis Webb's Teutonic
Class. As per this quote from "The Book Of Heroic Failures (Handbook of
The Not Very Good Club of Great Britain)":
"Few engineers can equal the achievement of Francis Webb, a locomotive
designer for the London & Northwestern Railway at the end of the last
century. In one book of locomotive design the index reads: "Webb, Francis -
his incompetence" Many of his engines were quite outstanding, they were no
faster or more powerful than other designs and yet were more expensive, less
efficient and much worse at starting. Despite this, he improved on them in
such a way they would frequently not start at all. His Teutonic class of
locomotives, for example, had two pairs of driving wheels which were not
connected and were capable of turning simultaneously in opposite directions.
The engine would remain motionless, puffing violently, with the two pairs of
wheels pulling in opposite directions to no effect. To overcome this
problem, the LNWR frequently had to use two engines, one of Webb's design
and the other of a different design, simply to get the engine started"
Kevin Martin wrote in
news:49882289$0$7704$ snipped-for-privacy@news.optusnet.com.au:
Still, at least it wouldn't have happened in recent times (spending money
that is on projects then pulling the plug before it can be fully developed
and the faults ironed out).
APT
This section, kind of made it rather pointless and impossible to
continue, not least the departure of Bulleid, who IIRC disliked the
concept of nationalisation.
End of the project
"The whole concept was quietly dropped in 1951 after Bulleid had
departed British Railways to become Chief Mechanical Engineer of Córas
Iompair Éireann (where he produced a similar peat-burning locomotive),
and all five were scrapped. [2] This resulted in a project that utilised
£178,865 5s 0d of the taxpayer's money, though when the press reported
the story as late as 1953, £500,000 was claimed to have been wasted on
the project.[11] R. G. Jarvis, who was placed in charge of the project
upon Bulleid's departure, emphasised that the locomotive would have
required an entire re-design to solve the problems of the original
concept. No members of the "Leader" class survived the 1950s, and only
the numberplate of 36001 is located in the National Railway Museum. In
2008, a locomotive builder's plate intended for the locomotive was
auctioned, though it was never fitted in service."
Kevin Martin
Ye, but I suspect the APT was a lot closer to actually working than the
Leader was. Many parts of the design were fully proven and successful.
Unlike the Leader:-
consumption, mechanical unreliability, untenable working conditions for both
fireman and driver, and uneven weight distribution on the bogies
As far as I know fuel (electricity consumption) was not a major issue,
and crew conditions not too bad. Sure it had flaws, but certain key
features worked - such as it reached its design speed.
The Leader also
the locomotive by filling the linking corridor with a large quantity of scrap
metal. This was latterly replaced by the fabrication of a raised floor covering
ballast material. These necessary modifications meant that the engine exceeded
the weight limit of 150 tons, severely limiting the design's route availability
during testing.
Over 150 Tons, that is heavy for a fairly modest loco, weighed down with
too much junk ideas
Kevin Martin
They built them because they didn't have the foreign exchange to buy
oil for diesel after WW2 left them impoverished.
The plan was for the new steam locomotives to last until
electrification.
With a change of government in 1952 the pwers that be decided steam
wastoo old fashioned.
It's easy to accuse people of not wanting to lose their jobs.
The double singles were compounds with the low pressure cylinders
using slip eccentrics rather than proper valve motion.
These are commonly used in live steam modelling. It requires the
engine to be pushed in the right direction to get them working in that
direction.
Not a problem with models which are given a push by hand.
But these were full size compounds.
The idea was that the high pressure side would move the engine forward
and to set the
On starting steam reached the high pressure side of what was
effectively a single driver until it reached the low pressure side.
Single drivers were notoriously easy to slip on starting. So if it
slipped the low pressure side was still set in reverse after the
engine backed onto the train.
So the high and low pressure sides slipped trying to go in tried to go
in different directions.
Webb wasn't the only heroic failure.
William Dean did some crazy designs too. A class of 0-4-4 tanks with
no side control on the bogie that wouldn't stay on the track, and a
4-2-4T with the same bogie that was even worse. Also some tandem
compounds whose valve events were all wrong that broke their
cylinders.
Obviously also the Handbook of the don't know a lot about 19th century
locomotives club ;)
I'd recommend the recent biog of Webb as an antidote to this particular
urban legend :)
In reality, the Teutonics were notably fast and powerful machines,
probably amongst the best express engines of their time (only
the much bigger and more expensive NER types were probably clearly ahead
then). Ahrons, who was around to see and record their running, rated tham
highly. starting, however, could be undertain, for the reasons Sue sets
out below..
The other Webb 3-cyl passenger compounds were less happy: smaller wheels
made the differences in effort from the cylinders harder to smooth out
(they would have benefitted from coupled wheels, probably, but metallurgy
at the time wasn't really up to making 10'6"+ coupling rods which could be
depended on), plus the boilers of the 8-wheeled types were distinctly odd.
The 4-cyl compounds really seem to have been pretty good (tho' the 5'3"
wheel 4-6-0s didn't thrive on express work - hardly surprising, that
one!). And the goods compounds all seem to have been reliable workhorses.
I'll gloss over the three compound tank engines, mind.
Think a fix was arrived at fairly quickly, though - as in weeks, not
longer. It wasn't a problem which was around for long.
many of the engineers who tried to drive the art forward had their
difficulties. Webb and Dean are two of those. I could also nod at bouch
(on the S&D) and his problems with piston valves, the younger Beattie on
the L&SW and his problems with - err - pretty much everything (now, the
younger Beattie would be a better contender for "heroic failure", or at
least failure on a heroic scale..), Adams for most of the designs from the
first half of his career - the list goes on.
But yes, I'd love to see a model of the Teutonic class on sale. Ideally
DCC with sound, so you get that great slow harsh bark of the exhaust, only
two beats per revolution.. I'd also very much like to see the GER Massey
Bromley single modelled - to me, the only one to steal the palm of beauty
from Stirling's big GNR bogie singles, and a notably competant machine.
And a Bouch S&D goods engine (ha! enough variations in any of those
classes to keep the collectors happy from not until the heat death of the
universe...). And a Fletcher 901 (ditto, in spades..). And almost anything
from the pre-Drummond Caledonian Railway's stable. And..
Oh, that's probably enough for now.
:
:
: Leader was an innovative design, and almost inevitably had faults
that it
: might have been possible to cure. BR chopped the finance before this
could
: happen. Who knows what success might have achieved if the Bulleid &
: Southern Railway had continued for a few more years ?
:
History proves you're suggestion wrong, whilst I'm a fan of Mr Bullied
and his designs I'm also a realist, after his service to the Southern
Rly and BR(s) Bullied went on to be CME of CIR (southern Irish
railways) were he built a very similar loco to "Leader" except that it
burnt turf rather than coal - it suffered much of the problems as
"Leader". The only thing that might have saved the leader project, but
not the three Leaders built / mostly assembled [1], would have been
oil burning and thus allowing the fireman to control his boiler
functions from alongside the driving position. It's a matter of
history that Leader was being designed at the time that the UK Govt.
was pushing oil firing onto the railways, as a means to improve the
post war coal supplies, and that it was *originally* going to be oil
fired but the whole Govt. backed oil firing project ended before
Leader was built.
[1] The boiler in the coal (and turf IIRC) burning locos were off set
to the locos centre line due to the need, as designed, to allow an
access way for crew alongside the boiler/bunker. This is also why
"Leader" ended up being so heavy, as once assembled and weighed it was
found that the loco was unbalanced to one side (not surprisingly!)
this mean that the intended passage ways had to be filled with steel
ballast ingots.
:
: Ye, but I suspect the APT was a lot closer to actually working than
the
: Leader was. Many parts of the design were fully proven and
successful.
...and many parts of the design went onto be developed by others and
are now found in modern rolling stock around the world - ATP failed
due to poor PR and political interference, not because it was a bad
design - remember that it's two main problems, stuck tilt mechanisms
and frozen brake lines, can and do still bug modern tilt stock.
The fireman still needs to be close to an oil firebox to check the
condition of the fire and even relight it.
This shouldn't have been a surprise. Shays had had offset boilers and
balancing ballast for years.
Other problems included using motorcycle chains not just to drive the
valve gear but also to replace the coupling rods.
The valves themseves were also a disaster. Sleeve valves don't work on
railway applications because the differential expansion of the
different components makes them seize. Which was the main reason the
Leader kept failing.
If he really wanted an articulated, a small Garratt would have been
much better. But this engine was meant do do the work of everything
from an M7 to a black five. Imagine a Leader and push pull set at
Seaton.
Compare with Ivatt, who built excellent, modern engines that were at
the same time orthodox and traditional.
:
: >
: >:
: >
: >:
: >: Leader was an innovative design, and almost inevitably had faults
: >that it
: >: might have been possible to cure. BR chopped the finance before
this
: >could
: >: happen. Who knows what success might have achieved if the Bulleid
&
: >: Southern Railway had continued for a few more years ?
: >:
: >
: >History proves you're suggestion wrong, whilst I'm a fan of Mr
Bullied
: >and his designs I'm also a realist, after his service to the
Southern
: >Rly and BR(s) Bullied went on to be CME of CIR (southern Irish
: >railways) were he built a very similar loco to "Leader" except that
it
: >burnt turf rather than coal - it suffered much of the problems as
: >"Leader". The only thing that might have saved the leader project,
but
: >not the three Leaders built / mostly assembled [1], would have been
: >oil burning and thus allowing the fireman to control his boiler
: >functions from alongside the driving position. It's a matter of
: >history that Leader was being designed at the time that the UK
Govt.
: >was pushing oil firing onto the railways, as a means to improve the
: >post war coal supplies, and that it was *originally* going to be
oil
: >fired but the whole Govt. backed oil firing project ended before
: >Leader was built.
:
: The fireman still needs to be close to an oil firebox to check the
: condition of the fire and even relight it.
Your point being? Yes access would be needed, but it would not have
needed to be all the time, unlike with manual coal firing. Also, had
it been possible to use oil firing (as intended) the firebox end of
the boiler could have been placed so it backed onto one of the cabs -
unfortunately having to manually stoke the firebox with coal meant the
fire-hole door had to be placed 'amidships', next to the coal
bunker...
:
: >[1] The boiler in the coal (and turf IIRC) burning locos were off
set
: >to the locos centre line due to the need, as designed, to allow an
: >access way for crew alongside the boiler/bunker. This is also why
: >"Leader" ended up being so heavy, as once assembled and weighed it
was
: >found that the loco was unbalanced to one side (not surprisingly!)
: >this mean that the intended passage ways had to be filled with
steel
: >ballast ingots.
:
: This shouldn't have been a surprise. Shays had had offset boilers
and
: balancing ballast for years.
You missed the point, the design had to be adapted during
construction/very late in the design stage, I suspect that they knew
that balancing ballast would be needed, the problem was that the
design had not allowed for it.
:
: Other problems included using motorcycle chains not just to drive
the
: valve gear but also to replace the coupling rods.
Err, wrong, they did not use 'motorcycle chain', you obviously have
never seen the internals of the valve gear on the non rebuilt Bullied
4-6-2s... anyway, IIRC, the problem with the 'coupling chain' was with
the sprockets and not the chains.
:
: The valves themseves were also a disaster. Sleeve valves don't work
on
: railway applications because the differential expansion of the
: different components makes them seize. Which was the main reason the
: Leader kept failing.
Hmm, they do work (they were already used in some designs of valve
gear), the problem (again, IIRC) was that the Leader used fabricated
valves/cylinders and not the more usual cast iron.
:
: If he really wanted an articulated, a small Garratt would have been
He didn't want an articulated (locomotive), he wanted a double ended
locomotive with the driving cab at the forward end of the direction of
travel, a Garratt would have had no advantage over a standard design
in this respect.
: much better. But this engine was meant do do the work of everything
: from an M7 to a black five. Imagine a Leader and push pull set at
: Seaton.
That's a bit like saying, imagine a Class 42 DH Warship in the place
of a Pannier tank...
:
: Compare with Ivatt, who built excellent, modern engines that were at
: the same time orthodox and traditional.
:
Ivatt copied what had gone before, he had no interest in furthering
the design of the steam locomotive, the LMS had set their sights on a
fleet of Diesels.
That may be true, it would make sort of sense, but it has never been
mentioned in any of the discussions I've read. It was suggested in Ian
Hislop's recent programme, but in only in hindsight - as in "perhaps
keeping steam until electrification, missing out the diesel bit" night
have been an idea. Certainly, road hauliers and airlines didn't seem to
suffer from such problems.
Still, I'll add it to the list so to speak.
Indeed, but the drivers I worked with couldn't wait to see the back of
steam, though firemen tended to disagree for some reason!
Cheers
Richard
Have you ever ridden in the cab of an oil fired engine?
When I lived in California one of my closest friends fired oil-fired
engines regularly and I often rode with him. Because it wasn't a
common skill he was in regular demand for visiting engines.
And I saw what he did. He constantly monitored the fire, before
adjusting the flame which required opening and closing the fire door.
Otherwise it would be like adding coal without bothering to check the
condition of the fire.
Only if you're silly enough to forget about needing to accomodate
differential expansion (and that applies to piston valves as well, as
witness the sad histories of several mid-19th century designs: Ginx's
babies, and suchlike).
It's be more accurate to say that sleeve valves are difficult to make work
reliably in any engine. Really, only Daimler (in cars, and at copious cost
in oil) and Bristol (in aero-engines) made 'em work as advertised. In both
cases the price was some serious precision engineering (much finer, i'd
suggest, than any railway works of the day could perform, being held back
by antique equipment and training) and, certainly in the case of Bristol,
serious investment in the metallurgy of exotic alloys (Brividium! Ha!).
Sleeve-valves could have maybe worked in a railway setting - if the
manufacturing and running maintainance had been brought up to the
standards of equipment and training (and facilities) of the aviation
industry. Which just wasn't going to happen on the steam railway (not
least because it'd have meant the same sort of salary level..).
If you want a non-Garrett double-bogie express steam engine, try a
Heilmann instead :)
Not in hindsight. It has been known for years.
The reasons the oil firing program was dropped, didn't disappear
overnight.
And going over from coal to oil, not just just on the railways but
also in industry, was one of the causes of a long term balance of
trade deficit.
Although being a Londoner I was glad to see the end of the pea soupers
we had when I was a child.
Drivers would be retrained on diesel. Without second men, the firemen
would lose their jobs.
For some reason a lot of people think the future unemployed shouldn't
object.
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