Lima

I too am sorry to see Lima go. It leaves some fairly large gaps in the market for modelers of diesel/electric eras. I just wish that Lima could have started to fit decent mechanisms - the detail level wasn't that bad (and could be improved with the various detailing kits). At the end of the day, people did buy Lima products, so they will be missed. Having said that, where there was a Bachmann or Hornby alternative, either available or promised, Lima would always have lost out in my book.

If someone buys the moulds and fits a decent drive system, I think they'll have a winner - especially if they can keep production costs down in the way that the big-two have. It is just possible that Lima's demise will be good news in the long-term, but only if someone steps into their shoes. Although there are now (or there are promised) 47, 37, 55, 40, 08, 20 models, without Lima, 87, 33, 73, 31, 60, 66, 67, 59 etc are all missing, not to mention the huge range of liveries which Lima covered on the other classes.

Adrian

Most of your quoted examples are 'eventually' going to be released by Bachmann/Heljan/Hornby at some point in the future, even if they aren't announcing anything or even have anything in the rumour mill.

This especially applies to the more recent classes (59 / 60 / 66 / 67), and they're all currently active. If Heljan believe they can make money out of the Hymek (with no mainline operation and only four preserved examples), then there is definitely money to be made out of the others.

Ian J.

The 33 body is way old! It's been due for replacing for the last 15 years, let alone the Lima mechanism...

Ian J.

This coupled with the UK market for diesel era and the whinging and whinings for better models by certain modellers, who wanted perfection for free has lead to the end of the line for lima.

The Lima people I have meet in Italy last year had tried really hard to please the UK importer by cutting prices and by constantly improving processes and designs, but to them the UK market appeared to want perfection without paying the costs, in other words some wanted Heljan quality at half the price, in running a business this could not be a compromise that Lima could afford to do, so in the end we have reached the end of the line for Lima at the moment.

I think you may be at least partially wrong in such assessments of the British model railway buying crowd.

Consider that Hornby have just woken up to a fact which had been staring all the manufacturer's in the face for years: That given the choice between low price but poorer quality / bad design, and a model that is produced accurately but costs that bit more, we actually go for the higher priced example. Ergo the Heljan 47 and the Hornby Merchant Navy.

Lima's consistent production of low quality was not based on accurate market research. I believe it was based on a serious misconception about the British (I include all nationalities, Scots, English, Welsh, Northern Irish, and yes, Irish!) - that we are a stingy, penny pinching lot who hate to part with money. The truth is that most modellers actually wanted reasonably accurate models which run well (and by that I mean smoothly as well as reliably). And we are prepared to pay for it, within reason.

I am aware that some models produced for continental markets are somewhat more expensive that even what we pay now, however, some of those models don't sell in huge quantities, so economies of scale come into play, as always. There's also the issue that for once, people in other countries might be getting stung by the manufacturers greed, rather than 'rip-off' Britain (which though had some basis in truth, the rip-off claim wasn't all it was made out to be).

Ian J.

that's not 100% accurate either though. Hornby are happy to admit to the stock market that a big part of their revitalisation is down to the Harry Potter/Thomas the Tank effect.

in other words, cheapo models with little detail that the kids (and their dads) can buy.

their old moulds, (black 5, class 37) are being used to produce the Thomas range, so clearly they believe there's life in the old dogs yet, as well as plenty of money to be made.

mutley

"mutley" wrote

Sorry Mutley, that's not quite true either. The Hornby *Hogwarts Castle* is produced from exactly the same tooling as their re-vamped ex-Dapol/ex-Airfix

I suspect Hornby are not so willing to explain to the stock market that they are having some fairly significant warranty claims because of the vulnerable nature of these models.

John.

Lima's customer was the UK importer, not the final purchaser. Lima demonstrated in many other markets that they could produce excellent quality models at reasonable and competitive prices.

In message , Gregory Procter writes

I know how the wholesale/retail distribution model works, thank you very much. Lima is/was the manufacturer, I and others like me are/were the potential consumer of Lima products. Lima does not produce what I want to buy, so I don't buy anything made by them. I have bought stuff made by them in the past, and wish I hadn't.

The middleman is irrelevant in this case.

=> - Why couldn't they increase prices to cover their additional costs => for making models properly?

'Cuz the same people who want a perfect body moulding and mechanism also have (to put it politely) a fantasy world concept of what it costs to make the model. Less politely, they are cheapskates.

A little story which may shed some light:

Some years ago I happened to become acquainted with an injection-mould specialist. I naturally picked his brains. He said that because the plastic will distort on ejection if not evenly cooled in the mould, a mould will have to be redone two or three times (sometimes more) just to get the cooling channels right. Sometimes the only solution is to redo the cooling channels so that the inevitable distortion will go in the right direction, so to speak. The cooling channels also determine the cooling the time, and a small decrease in cooling time can reduce costs considerably by increasing the output per hour. It's tricky, and it costs loadsadough. He told me that the complexity of the moulded part doesn't have much to do with it - the mould for the domed cover of a turntable that he once designed actually cost more than one that made a hundred or so lipstick tubes at a time. Experienced designers can minimise this fine-tuning of the mould -- his job was to train such designers in Matamaros, and he was having a good time passing on the tricks he'd accumulated over a lifetime of designing moulds. For me, it became crystal clear why the amount of plastic in the model has very little effect on its cost/price. For a typical car (waggon) kit, the box it comes in costs more than the plastic, in fact.

HTH

=>I know how the wholesale/retail distribution model works, thank you very =>much. Lima is/was the manufacturer, I and others like me are/were the =>potential consumer of Lima products. Lima does not produce what I want =>to buy, so I don't buy anything made by them. I have bought stuff made =>by them in the past, and wish I hadn't. =>

=>The middleman is irrelevant in this case.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. It's the middleman who brokers the deal, and if the middleman has stupid ideas about what the market wants, Lima is and the final consumer are both screwed.

If you cater to those who want better quality, you will do well, because then those who don't know how to judge the quality of the product will get a good product anyway - and they will love it, and buy more. The greatest single drag on the continued health of this hobby is crappy product made to meet a low price point. It runs badly, breaks easily, and discourages the entry-level hobbyist. I think many, many people who could have become happy model railroaders were disocuraged by this garbage, and went on to do other things.

HTH

I came on this newsgroup this evening to have my say about the (sorry) loss of Lima - and lo and behold, I find Emma has beaten me to it. I actually am grateful to Lima - without them my diesel-era model railway would be a shadow of itself, and, I'd like to point out, not all their models (by a long way) were poorly detailed. Case in point: Classes 40, 45 and 46 (in real life) all had their buffers etc on the bogie. I have a 'Mainline' (Palitoy) 45 - where are the buffers? I also have a 'Bachmann' 46 - again, where are the buffers? The answer to both questions is : incorrectly situated on the body. I also have a 'Lima'

1. So where are the buffers on that? Yes indeedy, they are CORRECTLY situated on the bogies. So please, less whinging about poor quality. One can detail a model further if desired, and I'm sure a lot of us like to do that anyway, even to Bachmann and Heljan stuff. And haven't I read (on this NG) complaints about Bachmann 37's and even Heljan 47's being less-than-perfect?.

Thank-you for reading this.

-- email: snipped-for-privacy@ntlworld.com website:

Well.

I suppose I ought to have my say.

If you (well most of us that is) cast your minds back a few years, weren't you pleased to see Lima produce yet another model we were always wishing was available.

At the time, Lima produced good models which were on a par with other manufacture's offering. Most of us accepted this as the way things were but wanted better.

If, like some say, they were universally hated, how come, they sold so many models.

But, our expectation moves on, and once someone bites the bullet, Bachmann in this case with their first US type drive in a UK outline model then you expect other manufacturers to move on.

Where diesels are concerned, Holman has proved it and Hornby are soon about to. I very much doubt that Lima's drive system offered in UK models was at the request of the importer. If they changed the drive and the importer didn't like it, then there would always be someone else to do the job.

Lima's problem was that they completely missed the boat with the 67 (hope that's the right one.) Everyone was on tenterhooks waiting to see the fabulous new drive that they must surely be offering to keep up with Bachmann. We all know the result. I firmly believe that this was the turning point for them in the UK. How on earth can a manufacturer who already has the drive system available, not fit it to their latest offering?

They could have broken the mould (no pun) and gone on to re-motor all the old stuff. All it would need would be a different chassis casting to fit each body.

They would have sold their stuff all over again. In droves.

So yes. I liked Lima even though I had higher expectations. Now I expect those expectations to be put into reality if a manufacturer wants to sell me anything.

Cheers Lima for keeping my interest in UK models alive, but, hey guys, move on please.

-- David Smith. Copthorne. West Sussex. UK snipped-for-privacy@copthorne.freeserve.co.uk

Outgoing mail checked by Norton AntiVirus 2002

Exactly, can you imagine the respective governments turning down the Euro-Fighter in favour of the Bi-Plane because the Bi-Plane was once the in-thing...warts an' all .. ??

In that case, you've missed the whole point of commerce.

Did you ever approach Lima with a specific production run sized order?

I have the same problem in that I model "old time German" and British HO.

I have bought models also, I treat their products as raw materials for building the models I want. As such, they make reasonably accurate and reasonably detailed components. eg the BR class 33 body makes a good starting point, ditto their wagons.

That "middleman" is the organisation doing the research of the prototype and the market. If Riko got it wrong then blame Riko. Lima's models for the German and French markets for the last 20 years have been quite respectable.

Regards, Greg.P.

Yes. :-)

If you look at the period 1918-39 you will see a number of decisions like that: Both the Hurricane and the Spitfire were private developments, as was the jet engine. Bombers were an afterthought. The Navy wanted more battleships rather than aircraft carriers. The French standardized on greatly inferior aircraft.

If you want examples of manufacturers producing long after the market moved on, look at the British car manufacturers, Rootes, Austin-Morris etc.

Regards, Greg.P.

And the British Government were offered the VW Beetle after the 2nd WW but they said it wouldn't sell.

Regards,

Colin.

and some bloke turned down signing the beatles 'cause he thought they wouldn't sell.

mutley off topic by a loooong way :)

"Gregory Procter" wrote

I certainly wouldn't have approached Lima if I wanted something manufactured to scale with a chassis that worked - they'd no UK track record of being able to produce same, and even the stuff produced by them for the European and USA market that I was familiar with left much to be desired.

I might though have considered approaching one of the Chinese manufacturers with a track record of producing quality products for the USA market in much the same way that Hornby did.

Horses for courses, simple as that.

John.

Based on the "normal" Bachmann products of the past 30 years, I wouldn't have approached them for anything! Lima at least made reliable rubbish for the toy market. For specific market segments, they have shown themselves capable of making excellent products. Lima has achieved much the same record, except that their workers apparently are not keen to work for Chinese wages.

If you buy donkeys from the back door of the stable, you're going to end up with donkeys!