No, both Lima and Rivarossi fell foul of unscrupulous/incompetent US importers who disappeared leaving huge debts - US$5 million in the case of Rivarossi - that's more that Rivarossi's total worth. Rivarossi has constantly upgraded it's (US) models. That of course is a double edged sword, as owners of older models see what they think are the same models on the shelves and don't recognise new wheels, mechanisms etc. The G motor has been gone from European Lima catalogues for nearly 20 years - the UK importer wanted "cheap" models because ...
Rivarossi have had dozens of importers over the years. Perhaps Walthers is the current importer, but I know after the importer in question went belly up, Rivarossi set up their own US importing company. Walthers has always been a retailer/wholesaler of Rivarossi, which is not the same thing.
No I haven't. The whole point of commerce is to make money. Everything else is secondary.
No, and I've never approached Bachmann, Heljan and Hornby with specific production-run-sized orders either. By your definition, I'm not a customer of any of those. They have still managed to produce better-quality merchandise than Lima over the past few years. What's more, Hornby have listened to what their "end users" have said, and are producing a Q1, purely because the demand is there.
Weren't Riko just the importers? If not, why weren't the goods sold under the Riko trade mark?
Based on the "normal" Bachmann products of the past 30 years, I wouldn't have approached them for anything! Lima at least made reliable rubbish for the toy market. For specific market segments, they have shown themselves capable of making excellent products. Lima has achieved much the same record, except that their workers apparently are not keen to work for Chinese wages.
I wonder why Hornby, then, have moved production to China.....the factories in China are excellent at producing more accurate models than anybody else, incl. the British and Italians...... Colin.
No, both Lima and Rivarossi fell foul of unscrupulous/incompetent US importers who disappeared leaving huge debts - US$5 million in the case of Rivarossi - that's more that Rivarossi's total worth.
Well that doesn't say much for the way in which Lima ran their business...does it!! Colin.
Sounds like utter incompetence on Lima's behalf exposing itself to such a significant risk from one account. Any self-respecting manufacturer would
*ring-fence* such risk, thus minimising the overall risk to the group.
There are also things called export credit guarantees, which most legitimate companies would require of any large scale overseas customer. Seemingly not Lima if your premise is correct.
Er, I was actually trying to make the point in my argument that Hornby had realised that there was more money to be made in accurate though more expensive models than in compromised half and half models that were neither toy nor model.
I always consider the Thomas market to be toys, not models, and so like Scalextric it is a different product altogether.
Having said both of the above, I think the only way Hornby could keep going was to move production to China where the costs are less (though maybe not for many years longer - I hear the Chinese are starting to demand higher wages...), and thus were able to produce a Merchant Navy under £100. If they'd tried that in Margate I think it would have been closer to £150, making it just too expensive to consider for most people.
Well I am quite happy with my "Chinese/Bachmann Branch Line" Boxed Special Edition Green Arrow. The only thing I was a little disappointed with is the amount of plastic used for the model!
I have some old Dublo Models with all-metal chassis and bodies. I suppose I am a little "spoilt" by these fine examples, though! I bought them at a local BootSale for £1 each, about 30 years ago!
...But then I am a little biased regarding the Green Arrow. Being my "Grandad's Train" as I have always called it. Perhaps I could make one myself, given enough time!
okay, so isn't the last line a backtrack on the entire rest of the thread. what you are saying is that modellers are prepared to pay the money for better quality models, but then you're saying they're not. or at least, you're putting a limit on it :)
some people obviously put -their- limit at the 20 - 40 quid mark and are happy to take the level of detail that they can get at that price. so, isn't that -exactly- the same thing as above?
fwiw, i welcome the change to superdetailed models, the minimum requirement for my own purchases are separate handrails, finely moulded grilles, decent workings, nem pockets etc, and i welcome the people who criticise models that aren't up to scratch when they're released because without them, the hobby wouldn't have moved forward at all, and i wouldn't be remotedly interested in modelling the UK scene, i'd stick to my p2k locos pulling kadee wagons and try to get a level of detail in my scenery to match. (fat chance!) plus, i don't have the time or energy to compare models with the prototype so i need the input of much more dedicated modellers to give me an insight into what is correct or not on each new release to enable me to make the right purchasing decisions. the more voices, and the louder they are, the better.
but if people like Lima and want to buy it, then so be it. it's no skin off my nose. i don't see anything detrimental to the hobby in that, and if Lima survive there's no reason to believe that the success of the current batch of Bachmann, Hornby and Heljan won't spur them on to creating much better locos themselves. if they don't survive, or worse still, if someone else aquires the tooling with the aim of producing more of the same, then that chance has gone.
anyway's, gosh, i'm rambling... need more coffee...
Granted you said ignore the post in your later message, however, your point of the limit that modellers might have as to how much they would spend to get a reasonably accurate, well detailed and smooth running vehicle (loco or rolling stock) is a valid one.
I think that would come down to each person's 'disposable' income. For me, I would pay maybe £100 at most for a good large steam loco, and Hornby's projected price of about £75 for the Class 50 wouldn't put me off. However, if they were to charge say £150 for it, I would have to think hard. Obviously a wealthy millionaire might probably pay £300 for such an item. But then again, the reason that person is a millionaire is more likely to be because they have a frugal outlook on life and want to get the best deal possible, so even they might complain at even a £100 limit!!
I think what I was trying to say in my initial reply was that we as modellers would be prepared to pay *some more*, not necessarily anything, for a more accurate, better running and better detailed vehicle
If Lima were to put a good high quality mech in their locos, and perhaps improve the surface detail on the older bodies, then charge double their current list prices (about £30, on average), then I would go for that, just. But with Hornby putting opening doors and louvres on their class 50, (and apparently it has a cracking mech in it) Lima might even then be a bit expensive considering.
One of the problems with Lima was that their price was rapidly escalating way out of the price range you suggested. Most loco's reached an RRP of GBP55.00 before the realisation set in that they just would not sell at that level.
On the other hand in recent years we have sold far more Heljan 47s with an RRP of GBP89.00 than Lima 47s irrespective of their price.
What I'm saying is that the Chinese factories produce utter rubbish and excellent models side by side, depending upon what the customer wants. Lima has produced good quality toys and excellent models side by side. You're chosing to compare excellent quality Chinese models with Lima toy quality, because your importer has demanded toys. I'm suggesting that the opposite comparison - Chinese toys vs Lima quality models is equally valid/invalid.
They went bankrupt - the Italian Government foisted the mess onto Rivarossi to manage - Rivarossi couldn't make it work inside two years. I'd be interested to find out why.
My understanding is that the Italian government has a habit of proping up Italian industry through lean times. Rivarossi has been "proped up" a number of times, such as through the period after their disasterous fire. My guess is that Rivarossi took risks in the US to meet repayments etc. I don't know why Lima failed a couple of years ago, apparently it was not from lack of sales. The outcome was that the Italian Government gave the whole mess to Rivarossi and from that moment, production disappeared. That's all leading us into politics - should governments allow manufacturers to roll over and die? Britain went the "roll over and die" route, but you had oil etc - Italy doesn't.
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