May be of interest to some of you!

Ok, since you asked:

"The rest of us" is merely ordinary folk, you and me, citizens, etc , as distinct from corporations who "externalise" costs. We all pay for these "externals", in all kinds of ways. "Externals" are for example dumping waste-water into the rivers, dumping inadequately filtered waste gases and vehicle exhaust into the atmosphere, using public roads for trucking ore instead of company-owned railways, leaving spoil heaps for "the tax payer" to clean up, using pesticides to enable "perfect" roses (shipped by air from Chile to USA/Canada/etc), etc and so on and so forth.

But we're in the game. This mess of indirect (and largely hidden) subsidies exists because we want "cheap" goods and services. We have this weird notion that the only costs of a good or service are a) paid in cash; and b) paid directly to the provider. Both of these propositions are nonsense. True, a lot of these externals have been regulated into internal costs in our more enlightened countries, but those regulations merely tend to move production offshore to less regulated countries.

The "free market" theory is fine in theory. Unfortunately, it can work as theory prescribes if and only if at least two conditions are met: a) all prices represent relative costs completely and accurately; and b) no participant (seller or buyer) has sufficient market power to distort prices for his benefit.

All actual markets are both formally and informally regulated. The question to ask is, For whose benefit? At present, the market is regulated in favour of trans-national corporations.

Wolf K.

Not sure why you were allowed to finish there as though case proven, free market evil. :-)

What about other types of market - say that previously employed by communist Russia, East Germany and whatever China has at the moment. Now their hidden costs were huge, damage to economy, environment and the population rife and mostly unrecorded. Its not the economy its whoever currently holds power and how it is used. At least in this part of the world culprits can get caught (wherever their crimes) and they may get punished.

Cheers, Simon

But that was all down to imperialist wreckers and counter-revolutionary saboteurs. And it wasn't real anyway. Real works, as we'll see once I am in power...

But... if the true costs are externalised into the community, and the community is everybody, and everybody uses the energy (excepting a few self-sufficient counter-culturists), then the true costs are borne exactly where they should be. Ne c'est pas?

Trans-national corporations do not exist in some bubble outside of reality, do they? They use available capital to employ populations to turn raw materials into goods and services required by society, working within government regulations, and generating the taxes to pay social costs. It's hardly their fault if you can't elect a government to apply effective regulations. The corporations do not have a vote in general elections, do they?

Anyway, the whole thing started a long time ago, when the first Cro-Magnon trader wandered into a Neanderthal encampment and offered to take the whole of the Neanderthals' herds of mammoths in exchange for viewing rights to Ancient Britain's Got Talent. Everyone was happy with that deal, if I remember rightly. Just ask the next Neanderthal you meet....

Steve W

No, my case is that there is no free market. It's an illusion. I said: "All actual markets are both formally and informally regulated." Emphasis on _actual_. BTW, Adam Smith knew this. He had quite a lot to say about how those who can do will distort the market to benefit themselves. The Friedmanites are very careful to ignore this part of his book.

I said "All actual markets are both formally and informally regulated." So I don't know why you are dishing up examples of. You're agreeing with me! :-)

If you want more examples of, take a good introductory course in anthropology, the kind that surveys a variety of different societies in terms of three or four motifs: family, economics, politics, religion, say. You'll be pleasant, surprised at the number of ways humans have arranged for the supply and exchange of goods and services. It also helps to keep in mind that most of these ways involved no money whatsoever, and that for 98% or so of our history as a distinct species we've gotten along without money.

Wolf K.

For most of the time we've gotten along without antibiotics, electricity or model trains. Doesn't mean it was better.

SNIP

Was far too complex for me, must be cos you're using more than 2 thingies occasionally.

Have been getting along without money since got married :-)

CHeers, Simon

ROTFL!

Wolf K.