lincoln vs. miller

"Nathan W. Collier" wrote

Will you be getting rid of that red mexican/canadian ford/dodge/chevy in the picture?

Steve

....just as soon as something better comes along and if theres an american version thats just as good, ill get that.

what? NAFTA was clintons agenda.

Voltage tracking wire speed is only used by Millermatic 135 and 175, Hobart Handler 135 and 175. Miller's bigger MIG welders don't use voltage tracking.

Pay attention, Nathan - the low-wage employees doing the "final assembly", not the product. It's the current executive from the Bush league who wants to leagalize illegal immigrants from Mexico. That way stuff can be Made in USA without any US Citizens having a job, and no more pesky problems with getting a new batch of illegals imported when somone forgot to pay off INS so the illegals could be told to stay home on INS inspection day.

They claim they have trouble filling some jobs with citizens - economics

You maybe should drive down to Torreon, Mexico, and look at the very large Cat plant that sits next to the Lincoln plant, I kid you not.

JTMcC.

who still look at ways of making their product better before

i dont doubt that at all. i based my statement on my experience working with cat design engineers in peoria il. ive heard many statements about making things stronger and more durable but in my time there i _never_ heard anyone reference a way to make something cheaper.

could you link me to a source that explains this in detail please? i have _no_ idea what party affiliation (if any) you follow or what your core idealogies might be. i would be interested in looking at all the facts from my libertarian viewpoint.

I'm independent (no party affiliation). Look up "guest worker" ; it's been in the news for the past month or so.

scary indeed, at least what ive read so far. i see the incentive to lowering wages to the point that no american would want the job anyway thus replacing american workers with foreigners. sort of makes me wonder whats next.

stop wondering: a "classic" on this sort of situation is entitled "The Greening of America" been around for quite awhile. when i first heard of the title, thought it was commie rubbish: all that it spoke to/off has rung true.

very scary, indeed!!

The alternative is that the company moves lock, stock, and barrel overseas. US companies paying high US wages, high US taxes, and conforming to restrictive US regulations, can't compete on the world market against companies with dramatically lower labor costs, lower taxes, and less regulation. So economics 101 tells us that either we find ways to bring the costs down here, or the companies move over there.

If we try to hold the companies here, while insisting that they pay all the extra costs that have become associated with being here, then the only result will be watching the companies declare bankruptcy and close their doors as foreign companies undercut their prices and take their markets.

Importing guest workers is not desirable, but losing the entire company overseas is even less desirable. Then *none* of the money and *none* of the jobs remain here. At least registered guest workers have to pay taxes, unlike illegals, and we have some control over who can come, and what they do.

The real question is what American workers are going to do. They can continue to refuse to work for lower wages, lose their jobs, and live on the streets, or they can accept that the world has become a more competitive place where the luxury of living large for little effort no longer cuts it.

Gary

Most of those jobs already have left. "Guest Workers" simply serve to maintain an artificially low labor rate for jobs that cannot be moved overseas.

so, who/what necesitates competing on world market?

as i recall the slogan went something like: keep America strong

Keeping America Strong and Keeping America Isolated are at opposite ends of the economic spectrum.

Let's start smaller - state level first. I'm in Nebraska, and our main exports (or so it seems..) are grain, beef, and teleservice people (when you make hotel reservations or call the credit card company, it's probably Omaha).

Problem is, Nebraska makes much more grain and beef than we can consume, and have teleservice capacity well beyond the booming hotel business in Ogallala. So, we sell our beef to steakhouses across the country and answer everyone's phone calls. In return, we buy cars made in Michigan fish from Oregon, and watch TV made in California.

Suppose we suddenly decided that we want to shore up the Nebraska TV industry, and banned the outsourcing of our jobs to California. Short-term win for Nebraska, since we've just increased our TV industry, and a loss to California since they just lost some customers. The Californians then have less industry, since we took it, so they buy less beef, and maybe start their own call centers. In the long term, California is still screwed, though they are working their way out of it, and not looking back to Nebraska. The Nebraska TV industry isn't as good as the California TV was, since it developed because it had to, not because it was good. Nebraskans are pissed because TV now sucks and nobody is buying beef or calling in.

Quality of life goes down for everyone.

Now, scale this globally and you see why it can be bad. A good example of how government involvement screws up is the steel industry.

Federal Highway (FHWA) did a foreign fabricator survey, basically to see where the state of world-wide bridge fabrication technology is, and to see what we can improve on. Look at the pictures of the Japanese shops in this report and tell me that you aren't scared - they are so far ahead it isn't even funny. Why are we so far behind? It's not because they are any smarter, harder-working, or more technically competent than us - it's because we don't have to catch up, thanks to Buy America legislation. We're telling a large part of our steel producing industry (the mills and fabricators for government projects) that they don't have to be the best they can be, and this type of effect and attitude trickles down throughout the industry.

wouldn't be so sure they are exactly diametrically opposed, now: remember "build a better mousetrap....."? build a quality product and accelerate your profits

hmmm, seems to hint at Kenyesion Economics, save for the fact that when the captains of industry are overly stuffed with greed the only thing that rolls down hill is s _ _ _. as opposed to care & concern about health & welfare of society as a whole

it sure can, because unless you got all your ducks in a row on the home front, you'll end up "goosed" when you upscale; though there is something to said for "..whats good for the goose is good for the gander"

or oil, or sugar; or any other group that makes their points with what normally would be considered illegal campaign contributions and illicit lobbying

don't want to seem negative, but i still have vivid recall of the dairymen of Wisconsin dumping loads of milk into the gutter when i didn't have any....

To play devil's advocate here, we should tariff the south next. You can get the same work done in Georgia for about half of the same work in NY City, all with less breaks and worker protections.

Big difference is that it costs less to live in Georgia than NYC. Costs even less in China.

The standard of 'living large' is local. Maybe $120/month in china is enough to eat out every night and have a nice house. Probably not, but what is the 'good' amount? $80 is a meaningless number without a frame of reference.

snip (and staying out of the politics!)

You have to stay at Ogallala multiple times to REALLY understand the irony of the last statement. The ONLY reason I stay there is because it's ON THE WAY to Denver and 700 miles from home.

Hey Gary, define lower wages. The average monthly income of Chinese workers stands only at around 80 US dollars, even less than the minimum income of two days for an American worker. This has incurred a drain of working posts in the US manufacturing industry. In the latest twelve months, cheap labors had earned China a trade surplus of 123 billion dollars to the United States, five times the figure as seen over ten years ago. Gary, do you make more than $80. per month? if so, are you "living large?" It's an unfair playing field. walt