The youth of today!!!

Prove there is a "god". Your ilk have had thousands of years to do so and have failed to find one shred of supporting evidence for your superstitions.

That's not atheism you're talking about, Gunner. That's anti-theism. Most atheists today follow a basic tenet of science: if they aren't convinced of the evidence to believe in God, they don't think there's a reason to believe. Anti-theists, in contrast, believe in arguments against God's existence.

Many people, like you, apparently, confuse atheism with agnosticism. The original meaning of agnosticism is that the answer is not knowable. Most people who call themselves agnostics don't claim that the answer is knowable or not -- they just don't know it themselves. If they don't believe, they're atheists.

"Pete C." wrote in news:4bfad07f$0$6358$ snipped-for-privacy@unlimited.usenetmonster.com:

You exist therefore since you exist (1) on a planet (2) that is in orbit around a star (3) that orbits the center of a galaxy (4) that is part of a universe (5) that was created ~4.5 billion years ago then the Creator of that universe/galaxy/star/planet/life exists.

Whether or not you wish to "worship" or even acknowledge that Creator is your problem.

Sorry Pete, Ive never claimed that there is, or is not a god.

But you have proclaimed before all, that there is no god.

So get down to proving your claim like a good little boy and quit trying the usual buffoonery and diversons.

As I said...we will all be waiting with amused interest.

Gunner

What's that Lassie? You say that Eregon fell down the old sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by 23 May 2010 21:59:48 GMT:

Damned if I know. Ask the OP.

Why don't you favor us with a few specifics here. Which group of people have evolved so that some non-morphological traits have become prominent.

I contend that in ANY group of a significant number of individuals, you will find geniuses, dunces, athletes, warriors, scholars, patriots, traitors, prophets, apostates, devout and secular, and all shades in between.

The OP was Iggy marveling over the appearance of a youth who exhibited troubling levels of "git 'er done".

(All kidding aside, we could use many more people like that.)

This chart shows a unit claimed to produce 600 W in a

25 MPH breeze: Obviously, one would need to provide much more than that in order to see 600 W out of an attached inverter but this is an example of the performance data one would need as part of the evaluation process.

These fine folks can get you started:

?file=HP124_pg98_Woofenden

--Winston

Looks like Stuart is afraid to admit that various races have differences.

I wonder why?

Gunner

What's that Lassie? You say that Winston fell down the old sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by Mon, 24 May 2010 22:03:46 -0700:

you're right, not the OP, it was winston, that referred to a 4.5 hour wind storm.

IRC, wind turbines yield higher bang for the buck as do photovoltaics, on average.

Here y'go, $1.25 per peak watt:

A 4.5 hour wind storm gets you an hour of welding per turbine (at midnight, too.)

--Winston

Of course it depends largely on how fast that 4.5 hour wind is.

Its a pleasure to see kids trying to do something constructive.

Nevertheless, they'd better stay off my lawn!

From:

"Jim Green at the National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL) developed a similar formula: annual energy output (AEO) in KWH =

0.01328 x rotor diameter (ft.) squared x average wind speed (mph) cubed."

Check my arithmetic, willya?

For a 6' diameter wind charger in a 25 MPH average wind, we are looking at about 7470 KWH annually which equates to about 8.5 hours of welder run time per day.

That is a *lot* of wire.

--Winston

That's a lot of wind. Where I am, I bet I'm lucky if my sustained yearly average is 5mph, and there may be many weeks when it's less. Storms and gusts are one thing, but even then, it's really hard to capture all the energy without simply breaking stuff.

--Glenn Lyford

Step zero in any solar / wind installation is a site assessment. Clearly if the resource isn't there to exploit, the installation would be a waste of time and money.

On the other foot, if the site assessment surprises in a good way, a wind charger could be defensible as a hobby if nothing else.

Given the high correlation of wind storms to power outages, I think it would be grand to have my fridge and computer automatically switch to wind energy during black outs.

--Winston

Winston wrote in news:hti5qi01s8 @news1.newsguy.com:

Lessee - 7470000/(24*365) = 852.7 watts/hour = 7.1 amps @120V.

You must have a very lightweight buzzbox if it'll run on that...

Of course you must remember that "annually" is based on the presumption that the wind never varies, much less quits...

I've had a 10' turbine as part of a home-power setup for over a decade. The turbine's production averages ~4kWh per day, which is more than I consume welding. The machine I use most is a Lincoln Power Mig

255. Others include a 185A inverter stick/TIG, and a 40A plasma cutter. It's possible that I have less sweat equity invested in being equipped for off-grid welding than some others have wasted explaining how difficult it is.

Wayne

Wayne, maybe you can help me clarify economics of this a little bit.

How much did your turbine cost you? (or, rather, how much would a comparable turbine cost if purchased at retail prices).

4 kWh per day amounts to the value of approximately 40 cents per day, at the prices of utility power, or $150 per year, give or take. So, for someone who lives on-grid, The benefit of having a turbine of this size are quite minimal. As you live off-grid, you have a completely different tradeoff and 4 kWh per day may cover your own needs nicely.

Am I missing anything?

i

My car alternator can convert mechanical power to 840 W of electrical power, but no more than that.

Four times a day, I jump in and turn the key.

It starts every time even though the starter pulls 1045 W.

The alternator isn't even turned on while I'm starting the car, so the power to drive the starter motor comes from... where exactly? :)

--Winston

(...)

Thanks Wayne. Your observation made me laugh out loud.

:)

--Winston

Our normal consumption varies between about 10 and 15kWh per day. Production can be as much as double that when there's good wind and sun. Most days the production is being throttled by lunchtime or so, and the excess is wasted. The 4kWh I mentioned is only the average wind portion.

Off-grid property tends to cost substantially less than that already equipped with power lines. The larger the percentage of your home's value is land cost, the more room for spending on powering a comparable off-grid parcel. Bottom line in my case - I sold my on-grid place, used part of the money to buy a square mile off-grid and build a custom home on it, and invested the rest. In the 15 years I've lived here I've saved ~$50k on property taxes alone over my last place. That money was also invested. Compared to the savings on the land and all the earnings its purchase made possible, the $25k I spent on the power setup is peanuts. I don't count the sweat equity since I consider it easier and far more pleasant than holding a job. I also had the advantage of being able to choose a mild climate. Those of you who spend thousands per year on space heating might not be able to imagine spending zero on that and investing the savings. That income isn't directly attributable to home power, but it's the tech that makes the whole concept possible.

As for grid-connected alternative power, long term it can pay in high utility-rate areas, especially if there are rebates etc. Regardless, the minimum for a decent home-workshop welding/emergency power might be a battery bank of say, 8 L16s (~$2500) and a 4kW (8kW surge) inverter (also ~$2500). Add some extra for charge control and misc. plus transformer if required. Charge the batteries with grid power, solar (~$2 per watt), or wind, which is about $2500 for a 1kW turbine plus whatever tower it needs.

I'm not sure how one should value grid-connected alternative power if it's mostly being done for backup. Probably the same as a new sofa, eating out, taking a cruise, or buying new underwear. All things that nobody ever questions whether or not they "pay". :-)

Wayne