Was given a new 90 AMP BUZZ BOX, what electrodes should I use ?

You don't do this test on a finished product, you do it on a test piece. It is a destructive test. Clamp the welded pieces in a big vise, and grab a big hammer. You just bang on stuff until it comes apart, then you look at what broke: did the weld simply peel off the metal again (failure)? Or did the weld hold long enough for the metal to break somewhere else (pass)? If you simply mangle the heck out of it and can't get it to break, that's also a pass.

Yes.

Not quite. According to Lincoln, the xx15, xx16, and xx18 rods are low hydrogen. There are plenty of other rods in the 7000 series are not. There are also low hydrogen rods that are not in the 7000 series.

7014 and 7024 are "high deposition rate" rods with extra iron powder in the coating. 7014 is very easy to run, especially on AC, and is typically available even in the smaller 1/16 sizes. It is sometimes dubbed "farmer's rod" because even inexperienced welders can usually manage to make acceptable welds with it without a lot of practice.

There are formulations of 7018 which are designed specifially for use on AC machines, and are typically labelled either AC7018 or 7018AC. Often available in 3/32, but I've not seen it much in 1/16. Near me it is more common at hardware stores, it can be hit-or-miss trying to find it at the big home centers.

Once 7018 has gotten damp and lost it's special low-hydrogen properties, it will still weld much like any other mild steel rod, it just won't protect you against hydrogen embrittlement anymore. If you need some for a project, and don't have a way to keep it dry, don't worry about throwing away the unused part when you're done, just save it for non-critical stuff.

With any rod, if it picks up enough moisture to actually get rusty, it's junk. Also, if the coating pops off easily or has degenerated into fuzz and fluff, toss it.

If you stick a rod trying to get it started, and the whole length glows red and the coating turns brown, you've pretty much killed it too. When you stick a rod, it can be easier to quickly yank the rod holder off instead of fighting it. Let it cool, break the rod off the workpiece, cut it back to a clean end if you have to, and try again.

--Glenn Lyford

Yes I wasn't quite right there.. Proper statement should have been most of the 7000 and higher series is low hydrogen.

To be exact.

7013 7015 7016 7018 7028 7048 Are low hydrogen.

7010 8010 and 9010

7011 7014 7024 Are cellulose covered electrodes, and not low hydrogen.

Everything else in the 8000 series and higher it is pretty safe to assume that they are low hydrogen. As far as I know.

Awesome Info,

Thanks all ! Now I'm gonna go and burn some rods up !

Cheers,

/Jman...

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:07:32 -0500, "N9WOS" >unclear on the 'Sledgehammer test' though.... How does one know HOW

Excellent advice all!

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

IIRC, 6013 and 7014 electrodes were specifically designed for use on AC, low power input / low OCV transformer (buzz box) welders.

7014 rods are similar to 13 series but with the addition of iron powder in the coating (like 18 series) which results in a smoother and more visually appearing bead. 7014 likes to be dragged more than whipped and this also contributes to the smooth bead shape even when used by less experienced operators (like some farmers, hence the rod's nickname). 6013 is very versatile and available in several small sizes like 1/16 & 5/64 that are not normally available in 7014. I do not use much 6013 as it is not a deep penetrating rod but I always keep a few in 5/64 and 3/32 on my rig for use on DCSPorRP on very small or thin work where low penetration is desirable. 6013 is often referred to as having 'fast follow' properties because the puddle will follow the arc tighter and faster than 10/11 'fast freeze', or 14,15,16,18,24,28 'fast fill' series rods. The 'fast follow' behaviour makes then particularly suitable for very thin material where it is desirable to travel quickly to limit burn through, but without skipping of the puddle which is more likely if using 10/11 'fast freeze' series rods. 6013 (and 10/11 (or 48)) can also be run downhill which also helps to limit penetration and burn through by leaving the heat behind the puddle.

The other factor the OP should consider is that a small power source (or very small electrodes) can cause problems due to quick chilling of the weld when welding on heavier work. This can be helped by using suitable preheat and maintaining suitable interpass temp. Small rods will often require multiple/more passes which will cause increased distortion. Control of distortion is a big subject, IMHO more suitable for its own thread.

Good luck, YMMV

"N9WOS" Proper statement should have been most of the 7000 and higher series is

WR,ITYAM

7013 (if it exists, I have never seen any), would be a high tensile version of 6013 and would not be low hydrogen.

I will correct myself.

The 7024 is a rutile electrode. Not a cellulose electrode. It is available as a low hydrogen electrode. It may not be sold as such by all manufactures, but it is available as such

I have seen some disagreement on the 7013 electrode. Some say it is rutile and not a low hydrogen electrode. But I have seen some military specs call for "low hydrogen 7013" It doesn't have cellulose so there is no reason why it can't be low hydrogen.

Some manufactures sell it for a creep resistant electrode.

That generally requires it to be low hydrogen, like the other electrodes in the class even though it isn't stated on the product listings.

'Creep-resistant' is an unfamiliar term for me, please define or explain. As I mentioned, I have no knowledge or experience of or with rods designated as 7013. Do they have a specialized use that I am unaware of? Is their usage industry specific or a regional thing?

I am inclined to suspect that a spec calling for 'low hydrogen 7013' is a misprint of 'low hydrogen 7018' and would require further confirmation or information.

TIA

"Private" wrote

I found out by mistake that 3/32" 6011 works well for .065 tubing field repairs and installations when run stinger negative, and low amps.

Steve

Indeed. Same here

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

If you look at a firebox of an old wood stove with the sides and top drooping or bloated from long exposure to high temperatures, then you will have a working definition of high temp creep.,

Creep resistance is the resistance to plastic deformation under long exposure to high, or elevated temperatures. Like used in boilers, and such.

One of the big problems is hydrogen embitterment damaging the plastic properties of the weld joint. You will have some plastic flow and deformation of the weld joint, no mater what type of rod you use. That is a result of the cyclic heating and cooling that normally comes along with high temp applications. All you are trying to do is limit the plastic flow to a reasonable level to obtain a useful life out of the product. But if you have some parts of the weld that have become brittle because of hydrogen entrapment, then that part will crack from the cyclic heating and cooling (because the brittleness of the metal can't tolerate the cycling deformation) long before the rest of the joint reaches it's end of life condition.

"N9WOS" deformation) long before the rest of the joint reaches it's end of life

I have found the answer.

Some spec sheets have 7013, 8013 and 9013specified as low hydrogen. But in the same PDF state that drying isn't required. That is counter intuitive. But I have been forgetting that they are CrMo steel. Or basically hydrogen resistant steel. Same as the base metal they are designed for.

Since they are rutile instead of basic, which mean that the coating isn't hygroscopic. That means that it doesn't have an inherent problem with the coating water logging. And the fact is that what ever hydrogen is present, isn't going to cause the metal any problem, because the metal is naturally resistant.

So it naturally produces low hydrogen welds, and doesn't need drying unless it is subjected to extremely wet conditions before use.

Drying won't cause them any problem, but it isn't needed.

That is as long as it is used on the base metal that it was designed for. That being CrMo steel.

Neat, thanks for looking all that up!

Here is two links to the two arctech 8013 style electrodes

That 6011 fumes bad though eh ? Wow, that stuff is stinky s**te... I find the 6013 way less smelly and easy burning. Of course this Buzz Box of mine can barely get through the 6011 rods anyway.... It might be time to look at a decent quality AC/DC / AW or perhaps a good middle of the road TIG machine. The reason is I just realized HOW MUCH of my stuff I need to 'spot weld' or 'tack weld' ! Not sure if a low-cost stick welder is going to do the trick. I don't seem to be getting too good of penetration in the parent metal. At least not on 'both pieces' of a 90 degree or even a butt weld. I find I need to lay a LOT of metal down to get anything to 'stick together'.

Cheers,

/Jman...

"Jman" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

I can not speak to scraps, rods, etc, other than to say I would just pick up some small GP rod to play with.

However, I can tell you something about inexpensive buzz boxes. Something I have discovered by experience... ok by accident. LOL. They have a very definite duty cycle. If you stay within the limits of the machine, and stay within the duty cycle you can get some pretty decent welds out of them. I've got a Lincoln cracker box, that I did not use for years because I was not a good enough welder to realize that my problem with it was that I was often trying to exceed its duty cycle. Just about the time I would get it welding ok from practicing my welding would all of a sudden go to crap. For years I thought it was me, and that I was destined to be a really lousy welder. Then a while back I was welding some six inch pipe for parking bollards The little flux core welder I was using would do only a few inches at a time. Then it would start welding lousy, and a few second later the thermal overload would kick the unit off. In a fit of anger I fired up my cracker box thinking it welds like crap, but atleast it will weld more than a couple inches at a time. I had not even plugged it in in years. I was right. I guess my eye and my skills had gotten a little better over the years just using my flux core welder because I started getting decent gorilla welds right away, and I could weld halfway around the pipe, and then it would... epiphany here... would start to weld just like my flux core would before it shut down. The only difference was that the stick welder wouldn't shut down. With the realization that I was exceeding the duty cycle of my cracker box I was able to finish my project by switching back and forth between cutting and welding and was able to work nonstop that way.

I'm still a lousy welder, but now I know one thing that allows me to not fight my machines as much.

Bob La Londe

It sounds more like it could be excessive heat build up in your work piece, than duty cycle of your stick machine, I don't know about your flux core. You might try techniques like skip welding, alternating your weld direction, always welding from the edge of the work piece to the center, etc.

You may also be selecting too large a rod for the work. For instance, welding standard wall 3" pipe with 1/8" rod causes a lot more excessive heat build up than 3/32".

It's the duty cycle of the machine that is the problem. They use aluminum windings. The resistance starts going up as the heat goes up. The arc current starts dropping off rapidly after a specific point.

The heat dissipation in the winding is a result of it's resistance. The resistance is a result of the temperature of the winding.

As the winding heats up, it's resistance goes up, which causes more heat to be dumped in it. That causes it to heat up faster. On and on.

There is a tipping point where it just goes into runaway heating. The only way for it to recover is to let it cool down.

The welds will all go to crap because the weld current will be a fraction of what it would be cold.

A cooling fan, will help.

Rewinding the core with copper wire will also help.

I don't think there is any way in heck you would run 1/8 on a big box store buzz box. They normally can't even run 5/32

"N9WOS" > flux core. You might try techniques like skip welding, alternating your

5/32 is larger than 1/8.

He mentions running out of duty cycle while welding half way around a pipe. Perhaps this is possible with some cracker boxes, but certainly not all. But you can also have very similar problems with generator machines with 100% duty cycles. If you start getting too much heat build up in the work piece, or even the weld area like welding toward the edge work piece, you can a have very similar issues.