Old Miller TIG - Can I use my 212 (not autoset) As a Power Source

My dad brought this by my shop yesterday evening.
http://tacklemaker.info/gallery/1_03_01_18_3_13_45.jpeg
Said I could use it indefinitely (that usually means he's never coming
might be suitable (and the reason I am posting) is my Miller 212 (NOT
I've never TIGed in my life, and I've never even watched a YouTube video
couple gas bottles, and atleast one spare flow regulator.
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On 01/03/2018 03:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

>


I don't think it will work well. TIG welding is a constant current process, while MIG welding is a constant voltage process. An old Lincoln tombstone would work better than the 212 for this because stick welding is also a constant current process.
BobH
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On 1/3/2018 5:36 PM, BobH wrote: > On 01/03/2018 03:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> My dad brought this by my shop yesterday evening. >> >>
http://tacklemaker.info/gallery/1_03_01_18_3_13_45.jpeg
> > >> Can I use my 212 as a DC power source for this rig? How would I set it up and run it? I mean the connections seem pretty straight forward, but I've never TIGed in my life, and I've never even watched a YouTube video on using one welder as the power supply for another welder. I do have a couple gas bottles, and atleast one spare flow regulator. >> > > I don't think it will work well. TIG welding is a constant current process, while MIG welding is a constant voltage process. An old Lincoln tombstone would work better than the 212 for this because stick welding is also a constant current process. > > BobH
... and I just happen to have an old Lincoln Tombstone in the corner that I almost never use except for the occasional nickel rod task. AC would be better for me anyway. The unit appears to have to be setup to use AC or DC source. While I might weld some stainless what I really need is something I can use to weld aluminum sheet thinner than my skill level for the spoolgun on the 212. I can do .08 to .125 passably with the 212. .125-.250 fairly easily, and 3/8 passably with a lot of preheat. I'd like to be able to do .0625. With the 212 I get more hole than weld with .0625, although I have actually welded as thin as .043 with it. Did I say more hole than weld. LOL.
One fellow on the Miller Welds forum seemed to think the buzz box might be to small for it, but otherwise might be ok.
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On 01/03/2018 06:24 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:






Not having a current control foot pedal will make it more difficult, but I have known people that used those HF boxes with tombstones successfully. Ernie L's rule of thumb for aluminum of 1.5A / thousandth of metal thickness works pretty well. The geometry of the weld can push that down to under 1A/thou like outside corners.
If you like TIG welding, getting a machine with the current control will make you a LOT happier.
BobH
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On 1/3/2018 7:09 PM, BobH wrote: > On 01/03/2018 06:24 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >> On 1/3/2018 5:36 PM, BobH wrote: >> > On 01/03/2018 03:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >> My dad brought this by my shop yesterday evening. >> >> >> >>
http://tacklemaker.info/gallery/1_03_01_18_3_13_45.jpeg
>> > > >> >> Can I use my 212 as a DC power source for this rig? How would I >> set it up and run it? I mean the connections seem pretty straight >> forward, but I've never TIGed in my life, and I've never even watched >> a YouTube video on using one welder as the power supply for another >> welder. I do have a couple gas bottles, and atleast one spare flow >> regulator. >> >> >> > >> > I don't think it will work well. TIG welding is a constant current >> process, while MIG welding is a constant voltage process. An old >> Lincoln tombstone would work better than the 212 for this because >> stick welding is also a constant current process. >> > >> > BobH >> >> ... and I just happen to have an old Lincoln Tombstone in the corner >> that I almost never use except for the occasional nickel rod task. AC >> would be better for me anyway. The unit appears to have to be setup >> to use AC or DC source. While I might weld some stainless what I >> really need is something I can use to weld aluminum sheet thinner than >> my skill level for the spoolgun on the 212. I can do .08 to .125 >> passably with the 212. .125-.250 fairly easily, and 3/8 passably with >> a lot of preheat. I'd like to be able to do .0625. With the 212 I >> get more hole than weld with .0625, although I have actually welded as >> thin as .043 with it. Did I say more hole than weld. LOL. >> >> One fellow on the Miller Welds forum seemed to think the buzz box >> might be to small for it, but otherwise might be ok. >> > Not having a current control foot pedal will make it more difficult, but > I have known people that used those HF boxes with tombstones > successfully. Ernie L's rule of thumb for aluminum of 1.5A / thousandth > of metal thickness works pretty well. The geometry of the weld can push > that down to under 1A/thou like outside corners. > > If you like TIG welding, getting a machine with the current control will > make you a LOT happier. > > BobH
Well, ultimately I might, but for now I am just looking at being able to add a dimension to what I CAN do. **OCCASIONALLY** I've since found a couple videos on TIGing with a buzzbox as a power source, and another with a guy who used a 300amp rectifier on his buzz box to do pseudo DC welding with it. I say "pseudo" because it still sounded sort of like an AC weld to me. I suspect that he needed some form of massive capacitance to level out the DC ripple a bit.
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On 1/4/2018 10:36 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:










core . Capacitance smooths voltage , inductance smooths current .
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On 1/4/2018 12:39 PM, Terry Coombs wrote: > On 1/4/2018 10:36 AM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> On 1/3/2018 7:09 PM, BobH wrote: >> > On 01/03/2018 06:24 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >> >> >> On 1/3/2018 5:36 PM, BobH wrote: >> >> > On 01/03/2018 03:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >> >> My dad brought this by my shop yesterday evening. >> >> >> >> >> >>
http://tacklemaker.info/gallery/1_03_01_18_3_13_45.jpeg
>> >> > > >> >> >> Can I use my 212 as a DC power source for this rig? How would I >> >> set it up and run it? I mean the connections seem pretty straight >> >> forward, but I've never TIGed in my life, and I've never even watched >> >> a YouTube video on using one welder as the power supply for another >> >> welder. I do have a couple gas bottles, and atleast one spare flow >> >> regulator. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > I don't think it will work well. TIG welding is a constant current >> >> process, while MIG welding is a constant voltage process. An old >> >> Lincoln tombstone would work better than the 212 for this because >> >> stick welding is also a constant current process. >> >> > >> >> > BobH >> >> >> >> ... and I just happen to have an old Lincoln Tombstone in the corner >> >> that I almost never use except for the occasional nickel rod task. AC >> >> would be better for me anyway. The unit appears to have to be setup >> >> to use AC or DC source. While I might weld some stainless what I >> >> really need is something I can use to weld aluminum sheet thinner than >> >> my skill level for the spoolgun on the 212. I can do .08 to .125 >> >> passably with the 212. .125-.250 fairly easily, and 3/8 passably with >> >> a lot of preheat. I'd like to be able to do .0625. With the 212 I >> >> get more hole than weld with .0625, although I have actually welded as >> >> thin as .043 with it. Did I say more hole than weld. LOL. >> >> >> >> One fellow on the Miller Welds forum seemed to think the buzz box >> >> might be to small for it, but otherwise might be ok. >> >> >> > Not having a current control foot pedal will make it more difficult, but >> > I have known people that used those HF boxes with tombstones >> > successfully. Ernie L's rule of thumb for aluminum of 1.5A / thousandth >> > of metal thickness works pretty well. The geometry of the weld can push >> > that down to under 1A/thou like outside corners. >> > >> > If you like TIG welding, getting a machine with the current control will >> > make you a LOT happier. >> > >> > BobH >> >> Well, ultimately I might, but for now I am just looking at being able to add a dimension to what I CAN do. **OCCASIONALLY** I've since found a couple videos on TIGing with a buzzbox as a power source, and another with a guy who used a 300amp rectifier on his buzz box to do pseudo DC welding with it. I say "pseudo" because it still sounded sort of like an AC weld to me. I suspect that he needed some form of massive capacitance to level out the DC ripple a bit. >> > Inductance , that is , a bigass coil with a massive laminated iron core . Capacitance smooths voltage , inductance smooths current . >
No I meant capactitance. Because without a capactitor of some kind he is not getting a very flat DC from his big ass rectifier. He is getting wildly fluctuating DC. I've built a DC power supply or two. Sorry for going off on a tangent there. Heck, maybe his fluctuating DC works like pulse. LOL.
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On 1/4/2018 3:37 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
















voltage , inductors smooth current . Following is clipped from this website : http://diy-welder.com/buildit.shtml
*"Reactor:*This is needed to stabilize the arc and also to provide current smoothing needed for MIG welding. They can be made with some heavy wire and a steel core. TheAuto-Powered Arc welder <http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeWelderPlans/AutoArcWelder.pdf has plans to make a reactor (referred to as an arc stabilizer in the article).
*Capacitors:*At least one to protect the alternator from surges. An AC motor start capacitor will do. For MIG welding, a large bank of computer-grade capacitors will really help the alternator handle the surge currents that short-arc MIG generates. It will also help starting the arc in stick welding but hurt stability without a significant reactor added.. 20,000uf/75V or more will help. The first prototype used a 160uf motor start capacitor. It worked great for arc welding. The second used two 23,000uf/75V caps in parallel. This helped MIG welding. I have 3 more of the large capacitors, to add but don't have much room."
application that both are needed .
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On 04/01/18 23:28, Terry Coombs wrote:


















My MIG welder has both an inductor and a bank of capacitors, the add on AC to DC rectifier box that I used for DC TIG before I got a modern inverter set contains the rectifier and a large inductor, no caps, certainly seemed to work quite well for DC TIG and stick.
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no you cannot, because TIG is CC, and your welder is CV, and plus not enough volts
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On 1/6/2018 10:34 AM, Ignoramus14509 wrote:

Yep, asked, answered, re-answered, and options discussed.
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wrote:

This shows the difference:: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-gb/support/process-and-theory/Pages/constant-current-vs-constant-coltage-output.aspx
The arc voltage is 20 ~ 25V in both cases. A Constant Current transformer puts out around twice that voltage at low current which makes the arc easier to strike. -jsw
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On 06/01/18 19:25, Jim Wilkins wrote:

My Pickhill oil cooled welder has a 50V OCV or 80V OCV selection, lower top current with the higher OCV voltage. The nice thing I find with the higher OCV voltage is with 6013 at least once an arc has been struck on some scrap the stick can just be laid down where you want to weld and it'll start straight up. No tapping around and sticking like I experienced on a cheaper lower OCV buzz box.
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On 1/3/2018 3:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: > My dad brought this by my shop yesterday evening. > >
http://tacklemaker.info/gallery/1_03_01_18_3_13_45.jpeg
> > Said I could use it indefinitely (that usually means he's never coming > back for it) if I wanted to try it out. The only welder I have that > might be suitable (and the reason I am posting) is my Miller 212 (NOT > Autoset) MIG. It's been good for me. > > Can I use my 212 as a DC power source for this rig? How would I set it > up and run it? I mean the connections seem pretty straight forward, but > I've never TIGed in my life, and I've never even watched a YouTube video > on using one welder as the power supply for another welder. I do have a > couple gas bottles, and atleast one spare flow regulator. > Well I got it all setup, and I think the unit is dead. I was not able to get anything that looked like a high frequency start. No hum, no whine. Nothing. By cranking up the current on the source I was able to get an arc that sustained briefly by touch starting (yuck!), but it would just vaporize the thin metal I wanted to set this up for. That's about the same result as if I just connected the torch directly to the cracker box. I may tear it apart and see if its something easy to fix, but for now the cracker box gets put back behind my air compressor to get it out of the way. Back to MIGing.
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On 02/11/2018 12:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:




The old HF units used a spark gap and a resonant LC circuit. Check/clean the points in the gap and set them to the correct gap. If that doesn't fix it, the next guess (beside a blown fuse) would be the capacitors have failed. The contacts are a freebie, the capacitors not too much, but maybe worthwhile. Beyond that, probably not worth the effort. If the HF is running correctly, on continuous, it should throw an arc 1/2".
Current control on a crackerbox will always be an issue, because you don't have continuous control of it.
BobH
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On 2/11/2018 3:21 PM, BobH wrote:




I must misunderstand then. Its my understanding that a cracker box stick welder is CC not CV. Its not very complex internally, so I'm sure it will waiver, but then again, I pushed a a little bit of rod with it back in the day, so it can't waiver that much.
Stick and TIG CC MIG CV
Makes me wonder about that new AC/DC Pulse MIG/TIG/STICK machine from Everlast. (well a year or so old now)
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On 02/11/2018 04:21 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:






You are correct, it is CC, what I was remembering is current adjustability in about 4 steps, up to 225A. I just looked at the ads, and it looks like it is adjustable in 5A increments, which should be adequate. It isn't foot pedal control, but it is control.
When they say CC, it is not perfectly constant, but it is pretty good. The manuals on a lot of machines give a Volts / Amps curve if you are curious. The Constant Current feature of it is achieved via magnetic magic in the transformer core. The newer inverter type machines do have an actual current sense/regulator system, but that takes a fair amount of electronics.
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On 2/11/2018 4:49 PM, BobH wrote:






I imagined I would have to do some stop and spot and overlap like I do with MIG since I wouldn't have a fine control, but then I already weld aluminum with MIG and that's what I've had to do with every piece of aluminum I have welded so far. Make short welds separated a ways, go back and fill in. I know starts and stops are bad, but you can only do as much as you can do. I am not going to get back to playing with this project for a while. I spent a good part of the weekend on it, and didn't really accomplish anything. Next weekend I'll likely open the box and take a poke around with a stick. This whole thing has kind given me the itch to get a brand new HF start AC/DC TIG setup. With low end 200 amp machines starting around $900 its tempting. I can't bring myself to pop $2+ grand for that multi process AC/DC Pulse MIG/TIG/STICK machine though. Besides I already have a couple MIG welders.
P.S. For those guys who still think Everlast is just Harbor Freights younger brother ESAB is supposed to be coming out with a similar machine soon. Lincoln and Miller still didn't have one last time I looked. Not like those anyway.
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On 02/11/2018 05:25 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:










Miller has had one for 5 years I think. The Multimatic machines.
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On 2/11/2018 6:01 PM, BobH wrote: > On 02/11/2018 05:25 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> On 2/11/2018 4:49 PM, BobH wrote: >>> On 02/11/2018 04:21 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>> On 2/11/2018 3:21 PM, BobH wrote: >>>>> On 02/11/2018 12:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>>> Well I got it all setup, and I think the unit is dead. I was not able to get anything that looked like a high frequency start. No hum, no whine. Nothing. By cranking up the current on the source I was able to get an arc that sustained briefly by touch starting (yuck!), but it would just vaporize the thin metal I wanted to set this up for. That's about the same result as if I just connected the torch directly to the cracker box. I may tear it apart and see if its something easy to fix, but for now the cracker box gets put back behind my air compressor to get it out of the way. Back to MIGing. >>>>> >>>>> The old HF units used a spark gap and a resonant LC circuit. Check/clean the points in the gap and set them to the correct gap. If that doesn't fix it, the next guess (beside a blown fuse) would be the capacitors have failed. The contacts are a freebie, the capacitors not too much, but maybe worthwhile. Beyond that, probably not worth the effort. >>>>> If the HF is running correctly, on continuous, it should throw an arc 1/2". >>>>> >>>>> Current control on a crackerbox will always be an issue, because you don't have continuous control of it. >>>>> >>>>> BobH >>>> >>>> >>>> I must misunderstand then. Its my understanding that a cracker box stick welder is CC not CV. Its not very complex internally, so I'm sure it will waiver, but then again, I pushed a a little bit of rod with it back in the day, so it can't waiver that much. >>>> >>>> Stick and TIG CC >>>> MIG CV >>>> >>>> Makes me wonder about that new AC/DC Pulse MIG/TIG/STICK machine from Everlast. (well a year or so old now) >>>> >>> >>> You are correct, it is CC, what I was remembering is current adjustability in about 4 steps, up to 225A. I just looked at the ads, and it looks like it is adjustable in 5A increments, which should be adequate. It isn't foot pedal control, but it is control. >>> >>> When they say CC, it is not perfectly constant, but it is pretty good. The manuals on a lot of machines give a Volts / Amps curve if you are curious. The Constant Current feature of it is achieved via magnetic magic in the transformer core. The newer inverter type machines do have an actual current sense/regulator system, but that takes a fair amount of electronics. >>> >> >> I imagined I would have to do some stop and spot and overlap like I do with MIG since I wouldn't have a fine control, but then I already weld aluminum with MIG and that's what I've had to do with every piece of aluminum I have welded so far. Make short welds separated a ways, go back and fill in. I know starts and stops are bad, but you can only do as much as you can do. I am not going to get back to playing with this project for a while. I spent a good part of the weekend on it, and didn't really accomplish anything. Next weekend I'll likely open the box and take a poke around with a stick. This whole thing has kind given me the itch to get a brand new HF start AC/DC TIG setup. With low end 200 amp machines starting around $900 its tempting. I can't bring myself to pop $2+ grand for that multi process AC/DC Pulse MIG/TIG/STICK machine though. Besides I already have a couple MIG welders. >> >> P.S. For those guys who still think Everlast is just Harbor Freights younger brother ESAB is supposed to be coming out with a similar machine soon. Lincoln and Miller still didn't have one last time I looked. Not like those anyway. >> > Miller has had one for 5 years I think. The Multimatic machines. >
Which one is AC and DC with Pulse for MIG or TIG and even a 6010 mode in the stick settings. I see several with just DC TIG and stick and one I saw was MIG/TIG/Stick, but all DC and no pulse. The 350P a is really nice (and very expensive) pulse MIG, but its just a MIG rig. I'd own that instead of my 212 if I could afford it.
I watched Chucke2009 weld all processes with the Everlast machine on his YouTube channel last year and I looked to see if there was another machine that did everything it does back then. I didn't find one. I did find some references to the ESAB machine he mentioned that was not released yet. Now Chucke is a good welder. He could probably weld with a car battery a clothes hanger and spit for flux and make a decent looking weld, but he made ok looking welds with all the processes to my inexperienced eye. I think his comment was it was not really bad at anything, but some of his dedicated single process machines were a little better at some processes.
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