Common Sense 0, Murphy 1

Not a lot. I have don it that way with gas/petrol for years, No battery, no spark inducing pump, just a very little pressure from a foot pump is enough.

With Glow fuel I use a geared hand cranked pump for reliable simplicity.

Most of us flying gasoline engines at my field use this technique to fuel our models and fill smoke tanks.

The fellow who started it at our field is a nuclear physicist.

The beauty of the air system is that you never run fuel through your pump. I can use the same air pump for nitro-methanol and for gasoline.

No explosions or injuries yet from this system in the three or four years Erol and his friends have used it. I've been running it only for two years.

Marty

I can see problems with this procedure for the inexperienced pilot. However, if you practice the routine, everything should be ok.

All of us should develop a routine for fueling and starting our engines, and pre-flighting our planes. Do the same thing, the same way, EVERY time. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

I'm learning by doing.

I think I was talking while refueling. That's a major temptation--and pleasure--in the hobby. I can't count how many times I've done something done because I was distracted by conversation.

I probably need to learn to say, "Give me a second" or "Hold that thought" when I need some moments of total concentration. I certainly don't want to spend all my time in the pits or at the flight line in stony silence, but I do want to work and fly within the limits of my brain. :o(

Agreed. I'll do a little mental rehearsal of the fueling process next time I go out.

Marty

I don't even use a fuel pump. My fuel setup for gas is a 2 gallon metal can (round, dome type) into which I have soldered (when new) three shuttoff valves: 1 that fuels the plane, one for pumping the air pressure into the can, and 1 for de-pressurising the can. I have a squeeze bulb (from a medical supply co. used for blood pressure monitors) for pressurizing the can. However, I rarely have to use it because just letting the can sit in the sub creates enough pressure to make it work. The shuttoff valve for the fueling line is opened and closed as needed for fueling the aircraft. On a cool day, I pressurize the can with the squeeze bulb. At the end of the flying day, I let the pressure out of the can with the valve at the depressurizing outlet. Do NOT use one of those thin metal gas cans, and if you're paranoid about the can blowing up into a 300 foot fireball, simply install a 20 to 30 pound pressure relief valve as a fourth valve. I didn't and have been using this setup for over 10 years and it still hasn't blown up.

MJC

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I have told my pit crew and spotter (which is usually my wife) to not talk to me during fueling, pre-flight, takeoff, or landing. She understands the need for focus at those times, and respects it.

Distraction will hurt ya. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

What's wrong with the picture of a fuel jug pressurized with air pressure to drive the fuel into the model ?

It's one component short of being a flamethrower : Ignition.

Still, one could argue that it is an intrinsically safe method.

I mean, there certainly aren't any _sources of ignition_ on a flight line, are there ?

I can see this thread was a waste of time . . .

Bye, now Cheers, Fred McClellan The House Of Balsa Dust home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber AMA L180201 IMAA LM 090 NASA 6512 LHA 2 WB 233

No, actually I had in mind other running engines, starter motors hooked to "battery's" with alligator clips, that kind of thing.

The sort of stuff the poor sod next to you is fiddling about with while you're playing Beat-The-Odds with your pressurized fuel container.

I use an automotive pump and pressure regulator set at 2 PSIG for gasoline, and a similar setup designed for glow fuel. I also use two fuel valves in the models to achieve a closed-loop fueling and de-fueling system wherein fuel flow stops at the flip of a switch.

No exposed electrical components, no alligator clips, no source of ignition. no fuel spills. Alas, it is not "cheep", which from the tone of the responses seems to be more important than safety.

If you think I'm all wet on the subject of pressurized fuel containers being inherently dangerous propositions, you're gonna _love_ my hare-brained notion that flight boxes ought to be equipped with a fire extinguisher.

You go right ahead doing things the way you always did things.

Don't waste your time on risk analysis . . . ."it" can't happen to you, right ? Cheers, Fred McClellan The House Of Balsa Dust home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber AMA L180201 IMAA LM 090 NASA 6512 LHA 2 WB 233

Fred, I've been using my pressurised gas can (gasoline) for over 10 years and I can assure you that the beauty of it is that there is absolutely no source of ignition to mess with. I'd suggest that I'm a WHOLE lot safer than YOU are if you're using an electric fuel pump (of any kind) to pump gas. No matter how you spin it, I'm performing the entire fueling operation without a source of ignition while you ARE constantly working with a source of ignition (actually, TWO sources of ignition; the pump itself and the battery connectors from the pump to the battery). Scenario: YOU'RE fuel line slips off and you have fuel SPRAYING all over due to the higher pressures of an electric fuel pump. To turn it off, you turn off the pump (sparking inside the switch) or kick the connectors off the battery (again, sparking). If MY line slips off, the fuel barely leaks onto the ground (wait'll you develop a bad prostate and you'll know what I mean :-) and I don't cause any sparking whether I turn off the fuel petcock or open the vent petcock. Also with my set up, I doubt if I ever get pressure over 3 or 4 pounds (judging by the rate of fuel flow). I've never come near the pressure limits of the fuel can either. Think about it: I use an official "gasoline" steel can (I'm thinking it's probably 18 gauge, NOT the thin metal type) which is DESIGNED to store gasoline and you can bet that part of that requirement is that it has to stay safe if it's sits in the sun all day (outboard motor use??) and develops internal pressure from the heat. Well, I rarely use my pumping bulb because letting the can sit in the sun is usually all it takes to develop just enough pressure for it to work properly. So "excessive" pressure is definitely not a problem with my method. I only use the fuel bulb on cold or sunless days and even then I pump it up only enough to move the gas, not "squirt" it. I'm comfortable that the way I transfer gas to my planes is a LOT safer than other gas fueling activities such as refueling a hot lawnmower by openly pouring gas into the tank (and all over the hot engine head). Or maybe refueling a small outboard motor out in the lake where you spill gas all over it and then pull the starter cord thereby generating a spark at the spark plug cap. And certainly much safer than using any kind of electric fuel pump for the operation. You might want to reconsider and join those of us who have found the SAFEST way to work with gasoline while fueling our models.

MJC

"Fred McClellan" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

| I can see this thread was a waste of time . . .

You've pointed out something that you feel is dangerouns, and not everybody agreed with you, so you think the thread was a waste of time?

Interesting point of view. One I might expect from somebody brand new to Usenet, but not from you.

I didn't think the thread was a waste of time.

Geez, I just visited RC groups as a follow p to one of the posts on this group

- the bloody site sets a cookie every time you choose a page or a thread or just think airplane thoughts. Those blokes are just cookie crazy - and (like they would care) I wouldn't bother going there again.

Are there any other (sensibly designed) forums sites - RC Universe, with its ads and crappy design etc is just too much of a pain to bother with.

David - who likes read> Fred,

The only rational way to set and remember what you have viewed is with information stored on your computer. While technically it is possible to maintain view and presentation in a master file, it would require secure login and tight maintenance of an account file.

The easiest way to set and remember what you have seen on your own machine is with cookies. Not all cookies are spawn of the devil. Any web site (with very minor exceptions) that 'remembers' what you've done and where you've been on the site does it with cookies.

-- Dave Thompson

"Automotive pump and pressure regulator".

If there were any inherent dangers associated with those items, they wouldn't be used by Detroit (or BMW, in my case).

Sealed pumps, sealed switches, no alligator clips, NOTHING which can cause a spark.

Don't recall lawnmowers or outboards being flown at any of the flying sites I've ever visited. Saw a flying lawnmower once, thought it was beaux stupid, even if it was a glow engine pulling something that only looked like a lawnmower.

The subject here is model airplanes, not the idiotic activities of Joe Dingbat in his back yard getting ready to light himself and his BORG mobile.

I did that when I set up my first fuel tote decades ago.

Joined those of "US" who have found the safest way to work with gasoline while fueling our models, I mean.

You missed the point of the post, which was that folks should really think about what they're doing with their refueling and de-fueling systems, and that maybe there is a better way.

You insist that yours is the safest way to fuel a model, never mind the fact that >a pressurized container of fuel is inherently dangerous

It seems to be thus far.

Or, I'm the only one around here who understands Boyle's Law and The Ideal Gas Law which inter alia define a pressurized container of fuel as inherently dangerous.

Having escaped Murphy's attention for a year or 10 years doesn't mean a pressurized container of fuel is any less inherently dangerous.

The fundamental proposition is that it is less inherently dangerous to pressurize only the fuel lines than to pressurize the entire fuel system including the fuel container.

It appears that I'm the only respondent herein who understands that fundamental concept. Cheers, Fred McClellan The House Of Balsa Dust home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber

Uh....just a swag here, but I'd say a 1/4 full jug of fuel under 4 pounds of pressure.

Oh, the ideal gas law applies to real gas when you include the vapor compressibility factor.... PV=znRT

I'm with ya there, Fred.

Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

I wouldn't got there any more and ask for my money back! :-)

Red S Batter Forum Moderator - RCU

RCGroups doesn't use cookies maliciously so if you're getting a lot of pop up activity, I'd first look to your own hard drive where some other site has installed some adware. If you're referring to your getting a bunch of cookie notifications from Windows, then I'd back off just a little in your Windows Security Settings and not worry about it. I do, however, run AdAware and PestControl a couple times each week to keep my computer clogging cookie activities under control.

MJC

Ahhh but the issue Dave is that it is MY problem to remember where I go and what I have seen - not those sill buggers that designed that site. Also, it is NOT rational to make someone click on an OK button for every post read and every page seen.

Any Web designer with even a tiny bit of nouse would simply store that info in a file, on their site, OR ask the viewer do that want to go thru all that crap or not.

David - who has no patience with pe> > Geez, I just visited RC groups as a follow p to one of the posts on this > group

Sho 'nuff. Cheers, Fred McClellan The House Of Balsa Dust home.mindspring.com/~the-plumber