Re: Why do RCers dislike C/L flyers on the same site.

Ok here is what you said.

"anyhow most of the guyswho fly CL also fly RC but NOT the other way round.."

Most implies a number not a percentage. You said "guys who fly CL also fly RC". Ok but the rest "NOT the other way around, says that nobody who flys RC flies CL when you just said as much before. I think I now understand that you are talking about percentages, but you can't tell from the above statement.

| Ok here is what you said. | | "anyhow most of the guyswho fly CL also fly RC but NOT the other | way round.." | | Most implies a number not a percentage.

Eh? Here's a definition for you --

| You said "guys who fly CL also fly RC". Ok but the rest "NOT the | other way around, says that nobody who flys RC flies CL

No, it doesn't. Not at all.

| when you just said as much before. I think I now understand that | you are talking about percentages, but you can't tell from the above | statement.

Sure you can.

Though it's not clear who `you' is. I didn't originally say those things, I just explained how they weren't impossible or even difficult to believe.

In any event, any time a thread or a sub-thread has devolved into a point where you're pulling definitions of simple words, it's obviously a dead horse and it's time to let it lie, which is what I shall do.

Sport Pilot Dec 14, 7:27 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.models.rc.air From: "Sport Pilot" - Find messages by this author

Date: 14 Dec 2005 05:27:44 -0800 Local: Wed, Dec 14 2005 7:27 am Subject: Re: Why do RCers dislike C/L flyers on the same site. Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

How does a C/L engine noise mask a R/C engine noise any more than another R/C engine?

Actually, I would think it is because many CLers don't use mufflers. The extra loud noise will over-ride the muffled RC engine, especially when the RC engine is throttled back on approach. Doesn't it have some effect on your approach when some gas-burner with a too-small low-pitch prop is hitting Mach .99 tip-speed doing IMAC just in front of the runway. Does for me. (Need all the excuses I can find.) (:-((<

As for me, I flew competition CL for years. Collected over 100 trophies in the time span from '57 through '72. BFD!! I love CL flying, Precision Aerobatics, and still do some with up to .19 eng / 52 Ft. lines in my back yard, mostly when I get some grand kids here. Thinking seriously about trying the stunt thing again, and I will be 70 years old in Feb. (;-))<

My Club, for 10 years soon, on Club-owned property, has a standing offer to any CL pilots that they can build a circle on the property provided they, 1. Are an AMA member, 2. Join the Club, and 3. Use a muffler / tuned pipe / noise limiting device on any engine of .10 or above just like the RCers do. The 'welcome' has gone for these almost

As others here have said, it is all model aviation. If it flies it is fine with this person. Hey sometimes it didn't fly too well and I still accept it! HA!

Horrace Cain AMA L93.

Sport Pilot Dec 14, 7:27 am show options

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Date: 14 Dec 2005 05:27:44 -0800 Local: Wed, Dec 14 2005 7:27 am Subject: Re: Why do RCers dislike C/L flyers on the same site. Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

How does a C/L engine noise mask a R/C engine noise any more than another R/C engine?

Actually, I would think it is because many CLers don't use mufflers. The extra loud noise will over-ride the muffled RC engine, especially when the RC engine is throttled back on approach. Doesn't it have some effect on your approach when some gas-burner with a too-small low-pitch prop is hitting Mach .99 tip-speed doing IMAC just in front of the runway. Does for me. (Need all the excuses I can find.) (:-((<

As for me, I flew competition CL for years. Collected over 100 trophies in the time span from '57 through '72. BFD!! I love CL flying, Precision Aerobatics, and still do some with up to .19 eng / 52 Ft. lines in my back yard, mostly when I get some grand kids here. Thinking seriously about trying the stunt thing again, and I will be 70 years old in Feb. (;-))<

My Club, for 10 years soon, on Club-owned property, has a standing offer to any CL pilots that they can build a circle on the property provided they, 1. Are an AMA member, 2. Join the Club, and 3. Use a muffler / tuned pipe / noise limiting device on any engine of .10 or above just like the RCers do. The 'welcome' has gone for these almost

As others here have said, it is all model aviation. If it flies it is fine with this person. Hey sometimes it didn't fly too well and I still accept it! HA!

Horrace Cain AMA L93.

As William S. once said, "much ado about nothing". If this is a good topic, we're in big trouble. Safety is a prime reason for separation. Just try keeping your eye on an errant RC aircraft when your going around in a tight circle. Lets face it, control line (and free flight) are an anachronism and with the advent of RC ARFs and Park Flyers, they will eventually go the way of the Dodo. They are already on the endangered list.

If I hit the lottery I'd buy I field large enough to accommodate RC, CL

and free flight. The lack of integration really limits the experience o model avaition. I have done most forms of model flying but RC is al that I have done the last 15 years. I miss the rest of the gang. haven't approached our club yet but I really would enjoy inviting a C club to our fun fly. In reality we have much more in common then not CL team racing was exciting and loads of fun. Free flight taught m more about trimming a plane than anyother experience I ever had in RC.

Its all good

-- flyboyanderso

----------------------------------------------------------------------- flyboyanderson's Profile:

Why have you NOT invited CL to your "FunFlys" ? In our showteam, we have one number that is CL. Since the person who flies is a very good pilot who often competes nationally, his routine is a very admirable one. The public loves it, since we announce his routine while he flies. He does his competition routine and it is nerve wrecking to watch. Especially at "FunFlys", you can set up different rules like, nobody else flies while CL is going on.

The lack of integration really limits the experience of model avaition. I have done most forms of model flying but RC is all that I have done the last

As a dedicated CL guy, I must say that I've heard most of these "Con CL" arguments before. Tell me.... Which group historicly has had the most AMA insurance claims? Who needs the most space? Who has the greatest number of noise complaints? Of both groups, which has had the most planes flown into someones picture window? We all pay to join the AMA. Who gets the most per dollar services? Answer = RC.

(Except the indoor guys) How many fields both public and private are at risk? Look around! With the encroachment of new housing developments, that catagory includes MOST FIELDS! Here in Woodland Cali. We're ALL, RC and CL alike, going to lose our county field very shortly due to expanding development. Most once popular flying fields are gone already! Thats true for every state I have ever lived in. Ohio, Virginia, New York, New Mexico, and Wisconsin.

CL isnt dead. It's growing again with both new and retread flyers! We have many more pilots attending the NATS than RC ever had and we will need to expand the facility in Muncy shortly.

The most important thing to remember is that after WE have no place to fly, you'll be next! Remember, the big thing that we share is a love of model aviation and our need of a place to play. Overall, we, RC and CL alike, are a tiny portion of the recreational hobby population and kids soccer is pushing us hard.

If you don't beleive me, contact the Garden State Circle Burnes MAC. A few years ago, when it was time to renew the lease on the CL field thay found themselves in competition with the local soccer league which was ready, willing and ableto pay a much higher rental fee than the controliners! In the end, they were able to retain their field but the writing is on the wall.

I once asked one of my BMW motorcycle buddies why he waved at those dumb Harley guys who never wave back at us. He replied; Any one of those a*******s is going to be a better friend of mine when the chips are down, than anyone driving a car".

Same with Model Aviation. I say that we'd better get wise and start working together, before we're ALL legislated and housing developed out of business!

Proprocker

As a dedicated CL guy, I must say that I've heard most of these "Con CL" arguments before. Tell me.... Which group historicly has had the most AMA insurance claims? Who needs the most space? Who has the greatest number of noise complaints? Of both groups, which has had the most planes flown into someones picture window? We all pay to join the AMA. Who gets the most per dollar services? Answer = RC.

(Except the indoor guys) How many fields both public and private are at risk? Look around! With the encroachment of new housing developments, that catagory includes MOST FIELDS! Here in Woodland Cali. We're ALL, RC and CL alike, going to lose our county field very shortly due to expanding development. Most once popular flying fields are gone already! Thats true for every state I have ever lived in. Ohio, Virginia, New York, New Mexico, and Wisconsin.

CL isnt dead. It's growing again with both new and retread flyers! We have many more pilots attending the NATS than RC ever had and we will need to expand the facility in Muncy shortly.

The most important thing to remember is that after WE have no place to fly, you'll be next! Remember, the big thing that we share is a love of model aviation and our need of a place to play. Overall, we, RC and CL alike, are a tiny portion of the recreational hobby population and kids soccer is pushing us hard.

If you don't beleive me, contact the Garden State Circle Burnes MAC. A few years ago, when it was time to renew the lease on the CL field thay found themselves in competition with the local soccer league which was ready, willing and ableto pay a much higher rental fee than the controliners! In the end, they were able to retain their field but the writing is on the wall.

I once asked one of my BMW motorcycle buddies why he waved at those dumb Harley guys who never wave back at us. He replied; Any one of those a*******s is going to be a better friend of mine when the chips are down, than anyone driving a car".

Same with Model Aviation. I say that we'd better get wise and start working together, before we're ALL legislated and housing developed out of business!

Proprocker

Just tonight someone called about flying C/L at our site after seeing C/L listed on our website. After he told me that he was primarily a combat flyer, I informed him that mufflers were a necessity at our field. Then he started in "well the big guys with the gas engines blah, blah.......", "and they traditionally don't use mufflers in C/L combat.....", "been flying for 50 years". At that point I decided that our club sets the standard for noise levels at our field and if any particular form of flying is too noisy then it won't happen. I told him he could come out and we would be the judges.

Phil (Club Pres) AMA609

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Good response. I can't believe the gall of some people. Do we really need people like that helping us lose our flying field?

If I bring one of my C/L planes to your flying field it'll have a muffler, and I won't complain.

Funny that I have seen some pretty hot CL combat engines with mufflers on them.

Ideal application for a tuned pipe i'd say.

I just took another look at the AMA regs... CL combat is specificly exempt from muffler requirements per the rules... but that does not keep someone from running one if they choose. Anyone have a source for maybe a flexible silcone muffler? I am quite serious as the minimalistic flying wings I use do little to protect the engine and a muffler would likely break off if it is used as a skid for landing. I do know that a muffler would make it harder to locate my plane in a match (stealth combat?)...... Bob Furr

PS By the way I am not sure about the tuned pipe idea... from what I have seen they take quite a bit of setup to get right and most of us flying combat do a minimum of setup and trim of a model.

| I just took another look at the AMA regs... CL combat is specificly | exempt from muffler requirements per the rules...

Which rules, specifically? The general `National Model Aircraft Safety Code' says nothing about mufflers, probably because muffling isn't really a safety issue.

I don't see anything about C/L combat, however. And of course, a site can still require them if they want, though I'm guessing that such a requirement would pretty much keep most C/L combat or speed events from happening there, as people wouldn't want to modify their planes.

| but that does not keep someone from running one if they choose.

It also doesn't prevent a contest director or site from requiring one if they chose.

| I do know that a muffler would make it harder to locate my plane in | a match (stealth combat?)......

Wouldn't you pretty much always know where your C/L plane is, as you've got a string pulling your hand right to it? (Seriously ... I've never seen any sort of C/L event.)

| PS By the way I am not sure about the tuned pipe idea... from what I | have seen they take quite a bit of setup to get right and most of us | flying combat do a minimum of setup and trim of a model.

Tuned pipes do require quite a bit of setup, but ultimately their biggest limitation is that the work best at a specific RPM. Which should work nicely for C/L since you don't normally have a throttle.

If you're flying C/L, and you have to use a muffler, a tuned pipe might very well be worth it.

Generally a muffler makes an engine run slower (though the engine will have to be re-tuned after you take the muffler off, and some engines require a certain amount of back-pressure to run properly) and so if you want top speed, you probably don't want a muffler. Can a specific engine with a tuned pipe outperform the same engine with no muffler at all, assuming both are tuned properly?

To attempt to answer your question, I've never seen any mufflers like you're referring to.

We all understand the "no restrictions" necessity for performance oriented endeavers. But I think we have to look at it like the NHRA folks do. If you want to run something noisy for the record books, then you have to find a place where it is safe and the folks next door are willing to put up with the smoke and racket....and that ain't gonna be at most flying fields that I know.

Phil AMA609

FAI regs requires Muffler for F2B (acrobatic) and something they call muffler for F4D (combat), but without giving a max. sound level.

I used to fly control line combat. Yes, it is easier to track a model that is not using a muffler. The same can be said for R/C planes as well, but I wouldn't want to go back to running engines without mufflers in R/C. I think it is time that the AMA stepped in and made everyone conform to the noise regs, even combat.

Ed Cregger