The End of R/C

Folks, here is an excerpt from one of the ARRL's recent mailings:

In his March 23 article "In This Power Play, High-Wire Act Riles Ham-Radio Fans," Wall Street Journal reporter Ken Brown described a "firestorm" of protest from amateurs when Penn Yan approved the BPL test plan.

Hallidy said he found during his visit that BPL noise "appears to start in earnest around the bottom of the 17 meter band (18 MHz) and continues upwards." He said that once he tuned above 18 MHz, there were no frequencies where the BPL noise was not observed. "The signals were pretty uniform from 18 to 30 MHz," he said.

_________________________________________________________________

Our illustrious republican administration is clearing the way for a wide-spread implementation of transmitting computer data over power lines. They call it BPL (broadband over powerlines). It will destroy R/C, CB and amateur radio usability.

How Public Safety radio users are going to cope with this, I do not know, but most of the public safety crowd has already moved up to 800 MHz anyway.

Write your elected federal and state government officials. This is not a hoax, in spite of how idiotic such a concept may appear.

For more info, go to the

formatting link
website. They have been fighting this for over a year. It has been proven time after time in real life applications that the interference to any kind of competing radio signal is intolerable and unworkable. However, the fat cats are greedy and we know which side of that coin that our present administration is on.

If you do not get personally involved, along with the rest of the US's citizens, BPL will become a fact of life and R/C, ham radio, CB and other two-way communications services will become less than a notation in the history books.

Ed Cregger, NM2K

Reply to
Ed Cregger
Loading thread data ...

However, it has nether the bandwith no te screening to actually be useable.

Just but some nice high power CB radios and switch em on near the power lines and watch the potetial user base desert in droves.

In this country, Energis decided insetad to incoroprate optical fibers

in the ground line that runs along the tower tops, and now have a nice national data network.

Other fibres are laid along railways and canals and rivers.

Local doitrubution is by phone line, microwave and cable netweorks.

BPL is unweildy, has not adequate bandwidth, is propne to interference, and will never catch on. Its juts another scam from teh compamies and their white house chums that brought you 'Enron, where's the evidence gone?'

Sell all shares in power companies, use it to buy plenty of transmitters, and short the power stock as well.

You will end up richer.

Its doomed to failure.

I suspect not.

Technically its too flawed.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

national data network.

The ARRL has written that the BPL system has been successfully used (from a computer user's point of view) in parts of Japan for a while now. And that the predicted interference to two-way communications materialized and was not alleviated.

The easy solution is for the government to ban operating two-way radios that interfere with BPL. Not the other way around.

I am pro broadband computer connections, but not at the expense of the RF spectrum.

Ed, NM2K

Reply to
Ed Cregger

I am right with you there, Ed. Japan is a very regulated society. The USA is, so far, much less so. The Japanese may putup with restrictions that the US citizens would not. I say teh stuff has not got the quality to be useable except in teh last few miles to teh consumer, same as ADSL. That is already infesting telephone lines with leaky radiation.

I'd like to know exactly where, and at what power leles and bandwidth this is all supposed to work. All my dealings wit ythis sort of thing give at best a few miles as te absolute maxium range of unshielded broadband wires, with tight bean microwave being the next useable step up with 10-20 mile ranges, or more, and optical fibre being the ultimate medium of choice for 100km + .

If it does come in it will render the whole SW band unuseable: we will just end up with Ghz band models. Arguably that in itself is not a huge issue, but I worry about spectral polloution for those - CIA etc - who regularly scan the global shortwaves for intelligence, and there are other scientific and miltary uses of that band as well, that would be severely compromised.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Point 1: Screw you ED if you think this is a "Republican" plan. Get your head out of your ass if you want to talk about issues without trying to make it political... which it isn't. It's about expanding a service and it's going to involve politicians of every bent by the time it happens.

Point 2: Who cares? Spread Spectrum is just around the corner and by the time BPL is implemented in any meaninful way to the point where it affects "us", we'll be flying on SS anyway.

Jeez, take a Vicadin.

MJC

Reply to
MJC

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will inform myself and do what I can to stem the tide with you.

Or... perhaps we should wait for our noble guardians of the AMA to champion our cause and protect us against the gummint/corporate interests? ~dripping sarcasm

Reply to
Sisyphus

I agree on one point. Both political parties have sold their souls to the devil, but no one is as good at it as the republicans - of which you are not, unless you made more than $250 million dollars last year.

Those with lesser incomes are considered party drones. They'll let you pay the bills and do the work to keep the hive - er - party going, but you won't reap any of the benefits of being a republican. Of course, the democrats are just as bad - 'cept different.

If you knew anything about RF, you would know that even spread spectrum needs to receive unfettered data in order to work at a usable data rate for controlling real world vehicles via remote control. BPL will cover hundreds of MHz with its noise. There will be no place for a clean bit of ss data to get through since the interference is continous and unrelenting.

Were I sufficiently paranoid, I might believe that the government is going to intentionally jam all RF communications so that they might be more easily monitored or disabled. Were I sufficiently paranoid - of course.

Ed Cregger, NM2K

Reply to
Ed Cregger

Ed,

Face it! When it comes to 200,000 big kids with "toy airplanes" and how ever many more with their cute little "walkie talkies" versus 285 million obtaining cheap, easy high speed internet access! Who do you think has the upper hand? Only solution is the same thing that created this mess in the first place. Technology!

So rather than a campaign where thousands try to defy millions. Perhaps it's time for the "customers" to demand new technology from Futaba, J.R., Hitec and the like. And for the AMA to actually lead by getting with the manufacturers, determining the best several options and hitting up the government for the appropriate permissions to make use of one or more of them.

So yeah! Maybe you're right! Maybe it is the end of R/C. In the US anyway! After all, where are the current and future pilots of the UAV's coming from? Not from the ranks of the hobby I can tell you that!

Chuck

Reply to
C.O.Jones

Hmmm!

no te em potetial Energis insetad incoroprate doitrubution netweorks propne juts teh compamies

Do us all a favor D.H.! Sober up before you post again!

national data network.

Reply to
C.O.Jones

"Ed Cregger" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@enews2.newsguy.com:

You should have kept your politcs out of it. You lost me as soon as you started your ignorant political rant.

Reply to
Jim H

While you're doing all that 'informing yourself', perhaps you might drop by the AMA web site, or read Steve Kaluf's column for the past few months, and find out what AMA has already been doing in this regard.

AMA doesn't tell the damn government what to do, y'know.

It's the other way 'round.

If ARRL can't make a dent in FCC's thick collective skull, AMA hasn't got a prayer in hell. Cheers, Fred McClellan The House Of Balsa Dust

formatting link

Reply to
Fred McClellan

I "lost you"? So now it is my fault that you are apathetic and will not pursue the subject, right?

I'm selling off both my ham gear and my R/C gear. Why? So I won't have to interact with other people in order to participate in a hobby. I'm sick of them. Your attitude is a perfect example of why I am sick of them.

Have a good life.

Ed Cregger

Reply to
Ed Cregger

As usual, I agree with you, Fred.

I just thought it would make the troops feel better, when, in the following years, they look at a picture of a once loved and enjoyed R/C model, they know that they at least tried to stand in the way of the tsunami that is approaching. At least they could say they tried to make a difference in preserving their hobby.

Ed Cregger

Reply to
Ed Cregger

Fuck off noddy.

Is that typed clear enough for you?

Commie bastard.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

The end of RC was foretold years ago. The CB craze was supposed to kill it and we moved from 27Mhz to 72. It was supposed to happen again when pagers and cell phones came along. We adapted and overcame and now we have the current shared freq. set up. As was said in a previous post, I'm sure that there will be a solution to overcome the current problem. it may be painful to some and then again it may not. Technology is a funny thing in that is never static.

As an aside, the Air Force is currently advertising for RC pilots for their UAV program, so our hobby IS a vialble source for the UAV programs. BPL will also affect the military as we use most of the same spectrum as everyone else so we have that going in our favor as well. If GPS is adversely affected, look out!! BPL won't fly as too much equipment uses GPS including the airline industy. With the demise of LORAN C and OMEGA, and the immanent death of VOR, and TACAN, GPS is about the only long range navigation system around.

Just my .02

Jim

Reply to
Black Cloud

What concerns me, Jim, is that the BPL program is being pushed forward by non technical types that only value money.

Even the FCC's own engineers, or those with enough professional pride to stick their chins out and buck the politics, have said that BPL will not provide the anticipated service and that it will, indeed, cause interference to RF spectrum users. As Natural Philospher pointed out, BPL will also be subject to interference from RF spectrum users, although I do not see this as a very big problem.

It is distressing to have a government that is chock full of technical experts on the government payroll, totally ignore their own expert's advice.

As an aside, no one with the slightest bit of technical competence would have anticipated interference to R/C from CB or cell phones. Certainly not on the 72 MHz band.

What worries me is the total disregard for citizens that have invested millions, if not billions, of dollars in radio equipment that can be rendered useless with just the stroke of a pen. All in the name of money.

No one would like widespread, reasonably priced, broadband internet access more than me. I'm struggling along with a connection that averages 26.4 kb on a good day. The idea of downloading family photos of the nieces and nephews in less than one half an hour is very appealing, but not if it renders the RF spectrum useless.

Ed Cregger

Reply to
Ed Cregger

Snip

SNIP

Hey D.H.!

Rather offensive remarks. I guess your S.O. must enjoy that sort of language. Just to clear things up for your bleary eyed consideration, you really should not go around calling others names. Coming from YOU anyone on this forum should consider that last name you called a high complement.

Reply to
Six_O'Clock_High

| As an aside, no one with the slightest bit of technical competence | would have anticipated interference to R/C from CB or cell | phones. Certainly not on the 72 MHz band.

That is incorrect, for at least two reasons :

1) R/C does use the 27 mhz band, even today. So does CB. I believe channel 6 is shared with one of the CB channels, but even the other five channels are very close to the CB channels and could be affected by a CBer close by -- especially if he's (illegally) using more than 4 watts. Also, some CBers transmit slightly outside of the CB band (freebanders) -- including directly on the frequencies used by R/C. Yes, it's illegal, but it happens.

(Of course, you're concentrating on the 72 mhz band, but remember that it's not the only R/C band.)

2) Cell phones usually use bands far removed from the 72 mhz band we normally use, so they're normally not a big problem. But even so, a cell phone tower *could* certainly interfere with your plane -- either via intermod, or by desensitizing your receiver to the point where it can't hear your transmitter anymore. Fortunately, this is only likely when your plane is much closer to the cell phone tower than your transmitter.

Of course, a pager tower that's using the 72 mhz band is a much larger concern than a cell phone tower at 800 (or more) mhz -- but even so, the cell phone tower may be a problem under certain conditions.

None of this is rocket science -- this stuff has been understood for decades, and certainly people considered it long before the 72 mhz band was allocated to R/C.

As for BPL, it's a disaster for ham radio (at least DXing) and shortwave listening -- that's well understood. For us, the problem is a lot more vague.

We don't normally deal with the extremely weak signals that hams do -- our receivers aren't actually that good at picking up weak signals. As long as our transmitter's signal is a good deal stronger than the signal received from other sources (including BPL) we're usually good. As I understand it, the signal generated by BPL isn't going to be that strong -- yes, stonger than a guy in Europe transmitting with 100 watts, but not as strong as your 1 watt transmitter only a few hundred feet away. Hopefully, BPL won't do anything more than reduce our effective range by a small amount, and create some `don't fly there' zones around power lines. But certainly, the AMA should try and quantify the danger more carefully, and join the ARRL in fighting against BPL. BPL is likely to be a problem for us, but it's not certain how large the problem will be.

As for interfering with GPS (as another poster suggested), GPS uses signals around 1200, 1600 and 2200 mhz. These are so far removed from the 2-80 mhz signals that BPL creates that they should be safe except under some extreme conditions, like being 10 feet away from a power or something (and if your plane is is that close, you've got bigger problems than a useless GPS.) I'd be much more concerned about intereference with the 118 - 134 mhz air band.

Reply to
Doug McLaren

Fly electric in your local park/field/back garden. You don't have to interact with any of them.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

And the satellites are owned and controlled by Uncle Sam...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.