The End of Brass?

I have to comment on this one........sure I deal in brass, collect, and I have a vested interest in the future of brass. First of all let me try to define brass models........I see them as limited run works of art which are hand built and will operate on a model railroad. Brass over the decacdes has evolved from affordable and almost all that was available in the RTR sector to today's super detailed, and beautifully finished (and expensive, but proportionate) collector pieces. Most current "state of the art" brass models rarely travel beyond the glass showcase. What damn fool is going to run a $1500 model on his pike.........then it ain't mint anymore! Plus the second worst sound in the world is a brass model falling 800 scale feet and hitting concrete. (Plastic does not sound to great either). Brass models really have become a hobby within a hobby. The general world of just about collecting everything has never caught on to brass models. Why?? It is never marketed to the general public...and what a shame!! Most everyone alive to some extent likes trains. Folks could collect name trains, wheel arrangements, railroads, cabeese, MOW equipment, Importers and builders, and on and on. Recently a gentleman came up to me at the last Timonium show and wanted to sell me his Franklin Mint SRR PS4 that he paid $300 for. As I was telling him why I would not buy it, he noticed a nicely painted PFM/United PS4 on my table for the same price. Did you ever see those dumb novelty eye glasses with the eyeballs on springs............well his eyeballs seemed to do the same with out the springs. All the poor guy wanted was a model of his favorite loco and knew nothing of the PFM counterpart. I think he is now learning more about brass and enjoying it. He did buy the PFM PS4. Point here...........The Franklin Mint models were mainly marketed to the general public. For model railroad operations, I agree that the new generation of plastic steam locos are just great, but they are production models vs. handbuilt works of art. Over the years I've been able to group brass buyers into five groups.....the operator, the operator collector, the collector, the collector investor, and the investor. The latter group houses tomorrow's dealers, but I can not condone brass as a good investment..........maybe so with much study and experience, but I tell customers to buy because they appreciate owning a fine piece of art or .....yes, a toy to be enjoyed. If one is lucky.....down the road when tastes change, they may recoup their cost. Other problems that have caused a slowdown in brass activity, besides economic fears and 9-11, is the plain truth that the folks who once collected and appreciated fine brass models are mostly now In Florida fishing from a bridge or just not above the ground anymore. We are between generations. The good news is that most of the new generation plastic steam locos are being bought by newbies and folks in their 20's to

50's...........most never having seen steam except on tourist roads or in museums. Are they doing period modeling?....Will they want to increase their steam rosters, and will they spend more on upgrades? I do not know the answer, but I am far from jumping ship. Basically it would take the plastic manufacturers decades to offer what is available today in brass.............new or used. Bruce.....you used the term "limited run or lower production plastic and diecast". "Limited run production pieces" is very close to being an oxymoron. Thousands must be sold just to recoup the mold costs. For my customers................not to worry, I'm still very much in business and love every minute of it!! HZ

groups.....the

lucky.....down

Howard summed things up VERY well. There will always be brass. BUT........................ It will not be the operators, it will be the collectors that will purchase new items. And as such, the market will be smaller and the prices higher.

The operator had for years, been attracted to the middle-of-the -road production brass models. The kind of stuff PFM imported by the thousands and the kind of stuff made in Korea in the 70s and 80s. Not anymore.

Real life example: In the past, before quality low cost plastic and die-cast, a new model raillroader would come into the shop and want a good 2-8-0. We would show him the Bowser kits, the model power stuff and in most cases he would either be intimidated by the kit or want something a little better than the Model Power (did you know that Rivarossi made these?) loco. So I'd take him over to the brass case and show him a used PFM SF 2-8-0. Sure enough, he'd buy the brass. But today the same type of beginner comes in and buys a Bachmann Spectrum 2--8-0. This is a true story.

Now, as a brass dealer, this isn't great news, but as a seller of Bachmann Spectrum locos it doesn't get much better.

There are a whole list of brass models that have plummeted in value. PFM Russian Decapods, PFM N&W Class A, Sunset and Akane USRA 4-8-2s, Akane and Oriental Ltd USRA 0--8-0s, PFM PRR K-4s, Westside NYC J-1e, and just about every brass E unit, F Unit and GP unit.

Will brass survive? Certainly. Will every importer? I wouldn't bet on that.

John Glaab Peach Creek Shops

Amen! The primary switchers on my branch line are a pair of Gem Rdg Camelbacks, an 0-4-0 and an 0-6-0. Both poor runners when new, but Sagami motors and extra pick-up wipers turned them into real gems (pun). They have been running several times a week for hours each session since the early 1980s, and still perform perfectly.

This perversity of inanimate objects has been known since the 1940s (without the video camera, of course.)

Walt

Funnily enough Bachmann do that for the British O-gauge market. The end result has been quite successful. Although they did make some mistakes in the early days because they didn't understand the market, like the wrong wheel standards. They took a pasting over this and were going to pull out but one of the leading O-gauge hobby stores is overseeing them to make them do it right. The result is eg accurate and detailed 2-car diesel multiple units that could be used on any layout from circa 1960 to the present day, for (pounds)400 or (dollars) 640. The recently announced model is a prairie tank engine which lasted from pre WW1 until almost the end of steam and is still the mainstay of several preservation railways. Unpainted but a bargain at (pounds) 400. They will all have been sold by the time they arrive in the UK.

These will _definitely_ be used on layouts. The average Brit can't afford to buy display art.

I don't own any brass, but I think the market will always exist. To me, the plastic market offers less road-specific equipment and more to the general side (USRA, etc.). This obviously gives them a much bigger target market.

Brass, though, offers a finer selection of road-specific locos, esp. in the steam arena. In an era where lots of railroads built or modifed their own equipment, sometimes that general plastic 2-8-0 or 4-8-4 might not fit your road at all.

I can see why one would buy brass steam, for that reason, but I think that the brass diesel/electric market is getting tougher and tougher competition from the plastic manufacturers. Especially in N-Scale, with Atlas dipping into the earlier first generation hood units...I can't see buying a pair of ATSF F7's in brass when you can find a reasonably excellent representation in plastic and detail it yourself! I guess that's why most have said that it's a collector's market...

my two cents

-TG

Howard:

Thanks for the complimentso nthe Brown Book. I agree the prices are all wrong. When I did the book I soon realized that all I did was set a new baseline.

The 3rd Edition is now 8 years old and the prices don't mean a thing. But the prices have NOT escallated as thay had in the past. Some stuff is almost unsaleable. ex. old Kumata diesels, old Westside passenger cars, PFM Russian Decapods & PRR K-4s. The prices of these brass models have been seriously impacted by the plastic/die-cast models. How about Big-Boys? I believe you stated that the Marklin Big-Boy was the best model you had ever seen of that loco. How will the Marklin Big Boy effect the prices of the old Tenshodo flat boiler bottom brass models that used to sell for big bucks?

Whats the old Chinese curse? "May you live in interesting times." And it just keeps getting more interesting. John Glaab Peach creek Shops

John, The items you had mentioned never sold well as they were from immense runs and of rather common prototypes. Last year (FY 2002)was the best year I have ever had in brass sales and aquisitions and appraisals

This year is not as good, but there is still model train season coming up and our fall Timonium show .Not to worry about slow movers. In the words of my famous uncle.....Testicles Van Zane, "A dead water buffalo will sell if priced correctly." Just recently I received a request for the PFM ATSF 2-8-0. I did not have one, nor did I currently know of any for sale. Corrcect me if I'm wrong............with over 8000 of these out there somewhere, it is hardly on the endangered species list!. Go Figure! Common brass diesels with plastic counterparts never flew off of the shelves...........Uncommon prototypes like some of OMI's models......different story. These go to collectors and there are quite a few.....although nowhwere near as many as steam collectors.

HZ

2000

Actually it is a fundamental law of the universe. On occasion one may achieve moral superiority over an inanimate object but it is a strain.

Nah, I don't think that brass engines will ever be gone for the one reason that plastic locos are a high production enviroment wihle a brass engine is a much more lower production enviroment. There may be a lot of people that will accept an approximate of a particular loco but when you get a Bachmann GS-4 in NYC livery, there is a basic problem. The only GS engines were built for the Southern Pacific as well as the only cab forward locos (aqside from a small one for a northwestern Calif. shortline) were for that railroad and there is no explaining that can be done to allow the claim for one running on any other railroad. Yes, some of the little engines by the various makers can theroeticall be run on other roads with the proper modifications but the basic fact is that most of the locos (even the supposedly standard USRA designs) built in the US were built for only one road or even just one division of a road and they didn't go far from there during their lifetime. What is worse is that successive versions of that wheel arrangement often had radically different details and thus, a single plastic loco can't handle the differences without major surgery, not something that everybody is able to handle. Some railroads you can build an almost complete roster for while other roads are not in such a good condition for representation. At the least tho, the brass maker can easily modify his brass parts to the next version of the prototype a lot easier than the plastic maker can. N&W didn't just have Y6b locos but a whole bunch of other locos of the same type but bought earlier and thus have different appearances in some details. Lastly, molded on piping just looks like crap. I don't care how you want to consider it but you can't make a molded on pipe look right and it would be better for the makers to not even bother with things like the sand pipes and so forth, allowing the user to apply that detail if they desire to do so.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works evevery time it is tried!

When you think "brass" -- just substitute the phrase "hand crafted, meticulously detailed, prototype replicas" and you will understand that such models will never disappear.

Nearly all of the current crop of low price steam locomotives have some kind of problem if you are trying to model a specific railroad's locomotives. Even the wonderful Genesis diesels lack the level of detail found on the latest brass diesels... but of course, they do cost less.

Excellent mass produced models like Genesis are going to hurt the resale value of any brass model that represents the same prototype. No doubt about it! But just pick up John Glaab's "Brown Book" and you'll see the incredible variety of prototype locomotives -- not to mention cabooses, work cars, freight and passenger cars. There's no way the "mass market" will ever be large enough to justify so many different models.

Many brass models have been almost totally unaffected by plastic. Name almost any W&R import, for example. The models most affected are those 20 or more years old which weren't that great in the first place. Clearly modern diesels have lost value -- but try to find an Overland SP tunnel motor for less than $500! (They were being produced for $250 about ten years ago.)

Ptooey

Bruce Fav> Over the past few years with the availability of very nice plastic and now

Brass vs Plastic'' reminds me of my days in the car business. A person would say ' i would never buy a mercedes, i would rather have a volkswagen'. the truth be known he couldn't afford a mercedes. my experience at some shows leads me to believe the same is true when some think brass is not for long. back in the 80's when kato became popular it was the Doom of brass diesels, guess what? the brass diesle are now better and more expensive than ever but they still sell. Just like cars there will always be upper and lower levels of price, in trains it happens to be brass vs plastic, in cars its mercedes vs volkswagen. just for info; i own 2 vw,s and 1 mercedes, lots of brass and also plastic. so theres room for all. Karl of Karls Kabuse.

The Western Pacific, and the Central of Georgia!

Cheers,

Mark.

With the best will in the world, this would only be of concern to dealers, or speculators. As a modeller, I couldn't care less.

Another aspect of older brass which this thread doesn't seem to mention is that in many cases, the older brass steam loco models

A very arguable premise, Bob. Of all the original USRA designs, the only ones exclusive to one road were the heavy 4-6-2s/Erie K5s, if memory serves. Take into account copies and designs that were closely derived or developed from the USRA originals, and you have a large number of very similar designs with a great amount of standardisation. Then, consider Harriman standard designs, stock designs from the commercial builders, second-hand locomotive sales, and the enforced standardisation imposed by the WPB during WWII, and the picture starts to look different.

I personally think that you overstate the case for diversity among steam designs - I reckon there is sufficient commonality in basic loco design/configuration to form the basis for a range of models suited to many different prototypes.

A good case could be made here for a basic rtr locomotive that is for road specific detailing by the modeller, without needing major surgery, if in fact that is required. It seems reasonable to me to suggest that if the market can support as many different producers of aftermarket detail parts for diesels as it currently does, there is probably room for similar producers of steam detail parts. Particularly given the number of quality plastic rtr steam models now available. But then again, it would depend on whether you were pitching your product towards model builders, or model consumers.

I completely agree. Moulded pipework is a waste of effort, no matter how well executed it is. I would much rather have the boiler moulding supplied entirely free of detail, so as to simplify the job of adding the detail specific to the prototype I am modelling. Even if I was freelancing, more realistic looking "generic" detail would be easier to achieve this way.

Of course, I am the first to admit that I have no way of being certain whether the market would be receptive to models of this sort, but it's an idea that appeals to me.

Not everyone wants to own a Mercedes - although they are popular as taxis in Europe. And how many VWs can you buy for the price of one Mercedes?

Cheers,

Mark.

If you talk about comparable size, you don't even get 2 VWs for one Mercedes over here in their homeland. And who needs 1 1/2 VWs >:-)

I think this is a bit different in the Plastic vs. Brass modelling. The brass models I saw recently were up to 10 times as expensive as comparable plastic models. Not that they didn't look a lot better ...

Regards,

George Werner Pflaum

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:32:17 UTC, Mark Newton wrote: 2000

Typically the modern plastic steam is better detailed than old brass but... sometimes the plastic is a bit off or sometimes it is cast on. It is easy to change fittings on a brass loco to upgrade it.

As far as running is concerned my older brass runs better than new plastic (or brass). Lacking in detail to some extent but excellent mechanisms. You may have to change the motor. Japanese open frame motors were noisy. I have seen some beautiful new brass that ran horribly. Some have so much detail stuff that they can only run on tangent track. Something hits as soon as the engine tries to take a curve.

One problem with brass, especially older stuff, is that in HO it is frequently oversize. I have a brass AC-6 (Cab-forward) that dwarfs a Rivarossi AC-12. The engines should be the same size. The Rivarossi is right (okay the drivers are too small). The brass engine looks much better. I have two brass P-10s (Espee pacifics) where the tenders are clearly too high.

I like my older brass. It runs well and looks good when painted. It is more rugged than plastic. Most of it cost less than today's plastic. I will stick with it. I won't buy new brass because it is priced out of sight and probably doesn't run as well.