This Looks Like The Right Place

I don't know where to start. What would be fun is searching remote regions for meteorites. I've been kicking around ideas to myself for
applications of what I guess ya'll call UAV's.
I know real planes better than RC's. I've been told for years to do something in miniature and came to the conclusion that full size costs about the same for that project, or so I thought. It has become intriguing that I may have discounted a very important area.
After seeing a video of someone flying a chopper very erratically got me to thinking. I almost built a custom ultra light to explore the desert and or scheming on how to make my own Aerial maps cause every time I get close they seem to not exist. Why risk your life when you could just cry if your toy crashes?
I'm open to directing me to what questions I should be asking, as crazy as that sounds, on what I guess is a research probe.
What is .60 ? I MUST be rusty , a real plane is what? 30' wing span and .60 of that isn't 5' it would be more like 18'.
There must be a huge road block that IS out there , and I'm guessing regulations/laws/politics other than $ , time & info. When does a model become real? Has anyone assessed the damage 911 did? What would happen if one had a 10' Dia. chopper and flew it around town or just over BLM/gov't/our land? I suppose you'd have to carry a transponder after a certain size , no? Laws not written yet? Big time restricted air space? Why, if so? You have to risk your life and endanger a whole building instead of a single car to fly legally remotely?
I read the thread about cargo back in Dec. today and it doesn't make since , 3HP little motors and can't lift much , should. What are the limits on size of off the shelf parts? I take it that most metal parts are pot metal and made in Asia , does anyone make their own chopper 'heads?' I'm sure the fixed wing is the way I'm thinking, but 30,000 parts flying in formation and not risking your life sounds like fun.
What if you use them for home land security instead of thought of as a threat? Oh, I guess I was the only one who thought that model rocket plant fire wasn't an accident right after 911.
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Also (if you're googling) RPVs (remotely piloted vehicles).

Agreed. As long as your UAV/RPV doesn't hit someone or something on the way to the crash site.

Start here: <http://www.aerosonde.com/
Even if you can't afford to buy one from them ($25,000 or so), it shows what people have done.

.60 cubic inches--a popular engine displacement in the hobby. It's roughly 10 cc.
The Aerosonde uses a much-modified 1.2 ci engine, I think.

Yes. The FAA and Homeland Security aren't going to like the idea of a civilian RPV with substantial flight capabilities (payload, duration, autopilot, GPS nav, etc.).

When it flies. Then it's an aircraft, even though it is not human-carrying.

Depends on who saw it, how it behaved, and what the mission of the flight was. Also whether you got permission beforehand or just hoped not to get noticed.

Depends on the air space and altitude you're flying in. Also whose land you're overflying.

Not in detail. There are grey areas. If you don't hurt anybody or do anything too stupid, no one will bother you. Otherwise, be prepared for big time trouble.

I can't make sense out of that sentence. The one data point that I've got stuck in my head is the example of an OS .40 ci FP (plain bearing engine) lifting 19 pounds of cargo, circling, and landing in a specified area. I doubt that the engine put out more than 3/4 horsepower.

The size is limited by what you want to spend. There are "model" engines that could fly an ultralight and pilot (four cylinder, 15-25 horsepower). Not many shelves stock these engines, of course.

People did in the beginning. Now there are excellent helicopter kits available.
A Japanese company had some crop spraying RC helicopters with GPS autopilots. I don't know if they're still in business.

Yes, it is. I've got one heli flying (little electric) and am going to buy another used one from some friends.

I don't have any opinion on that.
                    Marty
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| I don't know where to start. What would be fun is searching remote | regions for meteorites. I've been kicking around ideas to myself for | applications of what I guess ya'll call UAV's.
Your post is very hard to follow ...
| What is .60 ? I MUST be rusty , a real plane is what? 30' wing span | and .60 of that isn't 5' it would be more like 18'.
It's an airplane powered by a 0.60 cubic inch displacement engine. It's sort of a class of plane size -- perhaps a 5 foot wing span, though it's pretty vague.
| There must be a huge road block that IS out there , and I'm guessing | regulations/laws/politics other than $ , time & info. When does a | model become real? Has anyone assessed the damage 911 did?
Yes, lots of people have thought about it. Mostly people have realized that a 10 lb model airplane just can't do that much damage. Even that kid who flew a single engine plane into a building shortly after 9/11 didn't do much damage beyond killing himself.
If you want to do damage, you park a van full of explosives outside. Not fly a R/C plane somewhere.
How has 9/11 affected our hobby? A few sites have been closed due to FUD. Beyond that, not sure. Here in Austin, people can't slope fly off Mansfield dam anymore (nobody is allowed to walk on the dam anymore. The sign says `temporary restrictions', but it's been several years now ...) (So we fly near it.) Beyond that, *shrug*.
(Of course, to blow up a dam would require *massive* explosives. I doubt even a 747 crashing into the dam would do it. But that's paranoia for you ...)
| What would happen if one had a 10' Dia. chopper and flew it around | town or just over BLM/gov't/our land? I suppose you'd have to carry | a transponder after a certain size , no?
The FAA generally leaves us alone. And conversely, we try not to do stupid things around full scale planes, just like we've always done, in the hopes of 1) not hurting anybody and 2) keeping it where the FAA generally leaves us alone.
| What if you use them for home land security instead of thought of as a | threat? Oh, I guess I was the only one who thought that model rocket | plant fire wasn't an accident right after 911.
*shrug*
As for using R/C models for doing reconnoissance, the military does it a lot, and there are plenty of applications where private industry does so as well. Often a full sized plane would work, but a model can do the job for _much_ less money. And many of the models used are just off the shelf R/C models with standard cameras and such -- cheap.
--
Doug McLaren, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com
internet, eh? I hear they have that on computers now.
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:00:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com (Doug McLaren) wrote:

Thanks, I'll have to go over all this info. from all the posts again and again to get it all.
Austin , my favorite place. What is that , the dam at Lake Travis? Someday I need to stop by that big gray cut out part for the road there and look for more fossils. I've got a big Heart Urchin from there. Some kind soul on the Internet told me what it was, good thing cause I would have never figured it out by myself.
I've been considering on moving back there. I've got alot of irons in the fire though.
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Ted shuffled out of his cave and grunted these great (and sometimes not so great) words of knowledge:
I don't know what he is on, but it sounds interesting. {:-)

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:43:40 GMT, Ted Campanelli

Thanks, you should hear what I don't talk about or write down in note books. And sorry , but that's just the way I am , a good friend put it as fragmental. Its a bad habit from childhood.

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Great word!
I'll have to use it three times today to see if I can get it to stay in my lexicon.
Here's something that I take comfort in when I bump up against some of my personal limitations: "It's just a description, not an indictment."
Good luck with your projects.
                    Marty
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How are you going to detect the metorites from a plane?
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Does someone from
at PEORIA have a SHORTER
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wrote:

Well the real cool ones must leave a small round crater. Take the plane out for a day and video the area and watch the footage at home. Anything that looks promising you just print that page with the GPS numbers and go back and hunt it down. The main idea is finding interesting things out in the desert mines, ghost towns, and the dirt roads that lead to them. It sucks to physically check every road/trail in a valley to find what trips my trigger. Like when I get dragged out camping everybody goes fishing or some other boring thing and I go hunt down locals and park rangers and pick their brains for cool places to go.
I've got other ideas on how to detect them and an EE god for a friend, but half the fun is trying. The main problem is making sure the payload isn't over extended with future equipment cause that means I'd have to start all over again and make it better. I really want to find one ! After that I'd probably loose interest , totally.
You know there is another part to it. Its the strange looks and the "Forget About It Speeches" and then you do it and people go wow...
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I suppose so, but there are only about 150 known craters on the planet. Your chances of finding one are pretty darned small. Usually a meteorite is just a rock laying on the ground that looks slightly different than those around it.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Oh my GOD -- the
at SUN just fell into YANKEE
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There's some site in the Antarctic where they found the meteorite from Mars. I think the rocks there have to be examined by hand in order to see whether they are worth collecting.
                Marty
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:30:03 -0500, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"

From Mars? Really?? How do they KNOW it's from mars?? And if it really IS from mars, WHY are they spending million$ of $$$ to put robot rovers on mars???
Inquiring minds want to know
Skeptical Old Bob
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| >There's some site in the Antarctic where they found the meteorite | >from Mars. I think the rocks there have to be examined by hand in | >order to see whether they are worth collecting. | | From Mars? | Really??
I'm skeptical too. In order for a meteor to be from Mars, something would have had to hit Mars so hard as to eject rocks into space -- they'd have to exceed escape velocity by some margin (because the atmosphere (thin as it is) would still slow them down, maybe burn them up?) and then it would have to actually make it to the Earth (which seems unlikely -- space is big) and then not burn up on the way down. And then somebody would have to find it, and know what is is.
Sounds impossible ...
I haven't researched it very carefully, but the claims come from NASA, so I'm not willing to dismiss it out of hand.
More on it here --
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/snc / http://www-curator.jsc.nasa.gov/curator/antmet/mmc/mmc.htm
| How do they KNOW it's from mars?? | And if it really IS from mars, | WHY are they spending million$ of $$$ to put robot rovers on mars???
Well, just because they've found a few rocks from Mars, that doesn't teach us everything we'd want to know about it.
But how is it related to R/C? Well, the Mars Rovers are R/C controlled, though with several minute (depending on the current distance to Mars) lag times (the speed of light and all), they need to be mostly autonomous.
--
Doug McLaren, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
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message wrote:

And after very careful study and peer review it was determined to really, truly, HONESTLY from mars. Weird but true...the darnedest things happen in spite of what we humans think is possible.

Yes, mostly autonomous but with close (within practical limits) adult supervision...YAdult Suervision MV. 8^)
--
Keith Schiffner
Assistant to the Assistant Undersecretary of the
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The phrase "the meteorite from Mars" implies there is only one such known specimen. There are 34 according to JPL.

Yes.
No, it's all part of a vast government conspiracy. Didn't you ever watch The X-Files?

Among other things they have characteristics indicating a very hot entry through the atmosphere, and their age and composition matches rocks from Mars.

Because inquiring minds want to know more about Mars.

If that's actually true, there are far better places than this group to find information on meteorites and areology:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=meteorites+from+mars
This newsgroup has by far the laziest population of any I read.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I guess it was all a
at DREAM... or an episode of
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Ummmm, Matches WHICH " rocks from mars " ????
I would expect ANY solid object entering the atmosphere at high velocity to show a hot entry, the "age" of the rocks is nothing more than a WAG and We don't have any rocks which can be proven to actually be from mars to compare them with.
as to placing any particular weight on what NASA says about anything, their track record leaves room for doubt.
I guess maybe I'm just a little jealous that they get to play with multimillion$ in toys and get paid to do it while I have work to pay for my own (and theirs)
still Skeptical
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The ones on Mars that have been analyzed via spectral analysis.

Just refusing to believe things is not being skeptical. Its just being stubbornly ignorant.
A true skeptic would follow some of the links and read the papers. You can choose to ignore science if you like and believe the world is flat, the universe is geocentric, and heavier than air craft will never fly. That won't make it so.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I guess we can live
at on his POT FARM in HADES!!
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| I would expect ANY solid object entering the atmosphere at high | velocity to show a hot entry
Actually, when a meteor lands, it's usually not even hot.
The outer parts of it often ablate off, leaving the cooler candy center inside, and once it gets into the thicker part of the atmosphere, it slows to terminal velocity and has several minutes to cool off.
The reason that space craft re-entering get so hot is that they're going around 16,000 mph when they hit the atmosphere, and they need to bleed off all this speed. If a metor just happened to hit our atmosphere without much velocity (it could happen under the right conditions) it could conceivably make it to the ground without ever getting too hot.
| as to placing any particular weight on what NASA says about anything, | their track record leaves room for doubt.
I didn't say I trusted everything NASA said. I said I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand -- huge difference. As for their track record, how many times have you gone into space?
If the Weekly World News said they'd found Martian meteorites, I'd probably skip over that and look for more pictures of the batboy. But if NASA does, well, it's probably worth reading, and I haven't done more than skim over the stuff so far.
Ultimately, I consider myself to be reasonably smart. I'm probably smart enough to be an expert at a few things, but instead I'm usually just somewhat knowledgable about a lot of things. But I also know that there are people out there who are orders of magnitude smarter than I am, and some of these people put all their mental energy and time into just one field. And many of these people work at NASA. If they make a claim (Martian meteorites found on Earth!) and put it up for peer review, I realize, no matter how skeptical I am, that it's probably correct. Or if not, that I'm not likely to prove it wrong without devoting a few years of my life to it. And since I don't have enough time, energy or patience to investigate everything completely, for some things I just have to take their word for it.
| I guess maybe I'm just a little jealous that they get to play with multimillion$ | in toys and get paid to do it while I have work to pay for my own (and theirs)
Perhaps.
Ob R/C related:
I imagine that NASA's track record is probably somewhat better than my track record with R/C planes. Certainly, I've (accidently) crashed more planes than they've (accidently) crashed spacecraft since I've been in the hobby. (No idea how many plane crashes they've had, lately.)
--
Doug McLaren, snipped-for-privacy@frenzy.com
Imagination is the weapon in the war against reality
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Also it's not usually NASA claiming these specimens are from Mars. It's scientists from various universities. The claims have generally passed through a peer-review system than is pretty conservative.

They've definitely got a better record than I have. 100% of my planes that have been airborn have been crashed.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I'm pretending I'm
at pulling in a TROUT! Am I
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Doug McLaren wrote:

More or less bollocks.

It actually couldn't. Gravitational potential makes sure of that.
Thatas about tantamounyt to saying thata frictionbaless ball will roll to a stop at the bottom of a pudding bowl. No matter ehere you strat it from it won't. The only metioors tha arrive 'slowy' are teh ones that start here.
it could conceivably make it to the ground without ever

Just because a rock has te same composition as a bit of Mars doesn't mean it comes from there.

Try education as well.
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