I agree with zion9 Drafting is dead. I am a Kentuckian as well with
2-year associate degree and I can't even buy a drafting position. Th
sad part about it is that I DO enjoy drafting. :cry: :cry
Yeah. Sounds like Kentucky is dead. It's tough when the place you love won't
support you doing the things you love. Something's gotta give. Maybe you
should think more like an entrepreneur?
I have a Masters in Fine Arts. I picked up drafting working for various
architectural firms, first as a typist, then doing, computer graphics and 3D
modeling. I got laid off in 1999 and went to work as a consultant. I've
never pretended to have any knowledge of architecture. Give me your sketches
or red lines and I'll get 'em back to you, fast, accurate, in accordance
with your standards, and at a reasonable price. I've got to think that
architects and engineers (I've worked for both) are more particular here in
Massachusetts than they are in Kentucky and nobody's ever complained about
my drafting skills. I'm back at a corporate job again doing graphics and 3D
and I'm having a great time learning Sketchup and Piranesi on the company
dime. Aren't there any temp agencies in Kentucky? There's plenty of call for
CAD monkeys around here.
Marc
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:10:17 -0500,
snipped-for-privacy@hotmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Dancer) wrote:
Start doing side line jobs from the Internet. There are web sites
around that list employers seeking people to do CAD work (usually
converting old hand tracings to CAD). The pay isn't bad but the taxes
suck just remember to stick 20 percent of EVERYTHING you make in a
savings account for taxes.
I am not surprised by the insulting replies of these posts why the CAD
Drafter will always be in a catch 22 situation. Expected to "design"
with no engineering education, or as some have mentioned, not even a
Drafting degree!
I wouldn't be surprised if closed-minded engineers who always enjoy
blaming the CAD operator for their lack of design skills made these
posts. Every engineer needs a scapegoat. Why not the Drafter?
Drafters draw blueprints and engineers design them.
So you either train the Drafter or you end up having a huge company
turnover in the CAD Department. Duhh! I thought companies were
smarter than that.
I am not trying to be pejorative or overly snarky. I just feel that I
have been in a catch 22 situation at every architectural or engineering
firm. They always expect more than what my degree prepared me for.
You don't have to worry. I have been out of my field for two years. I
have applied at over 20 engineering firms and get the same, "Can you
design BS."
No one will train and no one gives a flying monkey's arse. They expect
you to walk-in and do the engineers job for him/her.
I am sorry. I just feel that what engineering/architectural firms
expect from the Drafter is unfair. I also think the schools are
responsible for not preparing the students for the demands of the
engineering firms.
I asked one Architect, "What type of education would it take to have me
prepared enough to work for your company?"
He said, "I don’t know, but all I know is that we need a designer and
we don't have time to train you."
Wow! If he didn't know then who does?
There is either the two-year Associate Degree Drafting courses or
engineering courses.
What the Hell am I supposed to do to be good enough? I mean, I already
went to school for two-years and a certified AutoCAD Drafting course?!!
I am sorry but I think engineering firms are too damn picky and expect
a rocket scientist for minimal pay.
My definition of Drafter/CAD Operator: Underpaid Engineer
My point: You cant squeeze blood from a turnip.
As one poster mentioned, what do I have to accomplish?
I dont know, but I was filling out an application for McDonalds while
putting on the application that I have a two-year Associate Degree.
And for the smart asses, I do take pride in my work and did my best,
but it wasn't good enough. They wanted engineers/architects.
The engineers and architects love to whine and moan about not finding
good CAD Opereators. Have they ever considered that their standards
may be too high and that the fact that they wont train is the issue.
Hell, I forgot, everyone needs a scapegoat.
What he's telling you is that the degree doesn't matter. The intelligence
does. One of the best designers I've worked for has a technologist's diploma
from a technical school. He's making a whack of money. No degree is no meal
ticket.
Dunno what to tell ya man... I started out on a drafting board, with
a 2 year degree in Mechanical Technology. I progressed from the board
to the computer, and am now titled as "senior designer". I design
parts, from engineers direction, they tell me the requirements, I
model the part(s).
We still have cad detailers, those that haven't developed the modeling
skills yet, or just don't have the designer knack. They take my
models, and detail them.
A very interesting thread IMHO (As a draughtsman who became an
Engineer by part time study ONC HND (Now called BTEC) and a 4 year
Part time day and evening Honours Degree in Civil Engineering (with
Advanced Structures as my option) whilst working.
Until the site agent, chippy, brick layer, plumber, roofer and others
carry around something to view 3D models on they are for Architects
and clients on schemes that warrent the investment in time and money
to produce them.
Mind you seeing the crap that 60% of Architects create in 2D do we
really want them to produce this in yet another dimension ?
Before I get flamed some of best friend are Architects and so are some
of my worst nightmears, and IMHO the Best architects are those that
has worked their way up from technicians that draw construction
details.
They don't train draughtsmen like they use too.
A good draughtsman, and those listed above create the 3D model in
their heads from the 2D details (if detailed correctly in the first
place)
Finding good draughtsmen is hard as an employer!
Many employers don't value these people enough! or pay them enough.
In the UK they don't teach TD (Technical Drawing) anymore in schools
and drawing is not covered at ONC HND level like it use to be.
University Grads may have picked up some CAD experiance from their
studies, however this is not covered as a given subject.
Nearest thing in the uk to what you guys are talking about is a city &
guilds course in AutoCAD, I have seen the wonderful 3D windmill the
guy has drawn, but he can't pass my 3Minute test and has no
understanding on how bricks are bonded, and about general
construction, thus he goes to show another prospective employer his
wonderful 3D windmill.
Rant over time to get ready for work
cadalot
One of my sons is very competent in 3D AutoCAD, and was recently asked to
work on an architectural drawing, to produce renderings and walk-throughs
etc. Oops - the roof turned out to be on the same level as the ground
floor ... he ended up starting again from scratch using the engineering
drawings.
In his view, the best device for walk-thoughs is the scene developer for
Quake. Ideal. No more walking through walls. One drawback is you must
have at least one monster (real estate agent) and one weapon (clipboard).
You can shoot the real estate agent with the clipboard - but you don't
tell the client that ...
My son produces things like a 3D nautilus shell, 3D fish. Eventually he
ran into someone who was racking their brains trying to find someone who
could draw a self-extracting mining drill - large double helix device.
Things began to look up after that. He had breezed through the CAD course
in the Australian TAFE system, but was a bit daunted at the prospect of
doing a 4 year evening course in basic construction, until an employer
suggested not to bother, just get out there and do the site surveys,
measure-up, and they would find the errors ...
Get the guy to produce the drawing and see how he does it and how
accurate he is. If he takes more than 3minutes forget it.
I had one guy who after 20-25 minutes I just said sorry and showed him
the door.
http://www.cadalot.co.uk/how_to_draw/3mintest.pdf
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:21:12 +0100, The-trooper
All you need is LINE and MOVE to pull that off....and BRAIN set to (1).
It reminds me of a job I had as a teenager delivering mail. They interviewed
me, and then gave me ten envelopes to place in alphabetical order according
to street name......in two minutes.... Go!
After 30 seconds they asked me if I wanted to double check my work....after
45 we were staring at each other somewhat uncomfortably for the rest of the
time allotted. I should have known I couldn't last at that job right there
but I was a kid.
Mike
A little more than LINE and MOVE……
There are two concentric squares that appear twice in the arrangement;
I would look for those to be drawn using rectangle and offset maybe,
and then copied and moved into the correct location (How did they go
about that process?). Could they see where they could save time in the
drawing process? I would watch to see how they would draw the shapes,
x,y or polar or tracking, did they draw a line from the centre figure
to the location point of each element around the centre element then
delete or did they offset from a point. How did they handle OSNAP or
did they snap at all, did they go beyond the basic figures as asked
for, (could they read and understand an basic instruction) and add the
dimensions? Did the final drawing match the information provided i.e.
was it dimensionally accurate or did it just look right.
As you say a very simple test, but I wanted to see that these guys
could produce accurate work and understood coordinates and snaps etc.
This little test really helped me weed out those people that were time
wasters and wanting to learn CAD on the job.
I had other short tests that were based upon my training material that
then showed me they had an understanding of layers and dimensioning.
Before my company let me start vetting the Agency Draughtsmen that
they were employing we had some wonderful crap produced by these
people. I can send you a drawing I use to this day to show what good
draughtsmanship isn't
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:10:07 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
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