forge pics

Recently built a forge and here is one of pics Alvin is hosting.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hosting/MKbest-fire.jpg
If you go to this address you can see the others.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hosting /
Look for anything MK*.jpg
I also have some knife pics too, it was made my stock removal with files.
My first test with heat treating went pretty good, I was playing around tonight and didn't have much luck though.
matthew ohio
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Thanks for the pics. That's a neat setup...just right for knifes I imagine. What type of wool and surface hardener did you use? And where can one buy them online? Again, thanks.
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Hey heChas,
I try to reserve buying industrial supplies online to things I just can't get locally.
It's best to see what you can get by ringing around, usually you can save on postage, and online prices are usually fixed. If you get a chance to chinwag sometimes (not always) you can get a discount.
Regards Charles
heChas wrote:

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On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:23:40 -0700, heChas wrote:

Thanks, I ended up buying everything from Darren Ellis. The pottery sites I saw only sold the refractory coating in large quantities. I figure I was keeping money in the "comunity too. Pottery sites carry all the stuff though. I used inswool and satanite for the refractory coating.
Last night I was playing with heat treating 1095.....it didn't go well at all. First I think the bernzs-o-matic tank is too low and the preasure isn't as high as it could be....maybe not. Anyway, the forge didn't seem to get really hot or heat to evenly. The outside temp. was somewhere in the low teens that night....maybe lower. Then I was quenching it hot water 140 degrees to 150...which was too slow I think.
Maybe the metal wasn't hot enough to begin with.....but after the quench it came out bendable. If the metal temp was lower than optimal...it still should have been brittle.....I think. If the metal wasn't critical, it was close. I quenched the end of a file that was above critical....hit it with a hammer a few times and no breakage.
I think the water quench was the main culprit.....I'm going to hook up a larger propane tank to the forge and try again with slightly cooler water....
When I quenched it the hot water, I could see the glowing steel for a few seconds....I think I need a less stable vapor film so I'll try cooler water. I moved it around and everything...still glowed red.
The test pieces where 1/8 inch thick and an 1.5 inches by 1 inch.
I need to get some oil. I still think I need to get a charcoal setup for heat treating and use gas for forging. :)
matthew ohio
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Why do you think that?
You could effectively heat up the blade in the forge then quench. You can temper a blade on a stove top or a toaster oven.
There shouldn't be any need for a charcoal forge unless like me you need a large charcoal forge for a special job.
Regards Charles
MatthewK wrote:

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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:30:46 +1100, Chilla wrote:

I'm thinking in terms of an ideal for cheap heat-treating. Even heating and a reducing enviroment. I figure I could control the heat level better too. That and I have a bag of lump charcoal just sitting there......I know I could just grill with it....:)
matthew ohio
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Cut the charcoal into 1" squares- a cooking cube will cut twice, crossways. You're building a 'short' fire, and the size gives you a good bed for color and 'management' of the heat. Japanese swordsmiths used that size for most forging/forge-welding as well. It's incredibly consuming of charcoal, but the best for bladesmithing. Northern European bladesmiths used a small-cut charcoal as well. Ims, the old Randall steel was a charcoal smelted toolsteel from Sweden. Something about sulfur content of any coal/coke as contrasted with the pure carbon from charcoal- not my area of expertise.
Chas
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:/
How much liquid the bottle got in it? :)
The pressure in the bottle is according to the temperature as long as there is at least some liquid.

Sounds like it wasn't hot enough to me. :/
While messing around might as well use a magnet to help you find the right color etc?

Nope. :/
Basically there would be no change if the part was annealed before.

In this game "close" is no where. ;)
And so, not changed to martensite, so not hard or brittle.

Try filing it with the corner-edge of another file. :)

Cool. :) Sounds like a worth while experiment to me. :)

Sounds cool, I've never messed with hot water. :)

Early on I was using "salty water" then switched to warmed-up ATF.
Off hand it sounds like it was just too stinkin cold out there. :/
Alvin in AZ
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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:03:37 +0000, alvinj wrote:

Ok, I had enough. :)

Yeah...it's warmer today so I might give it another go. Thanks for the help.
matthew ohio
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MatthewK wrote:

I think the ambient temperature is pretty much a direct adder or subtractor to the furnace temp. So a few tens of degrees of ambient change won't make much difference unless the furnace is really marginal.
--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesnt necessarily represent IBMs positions,
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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:06:11 -0600, Del Cecchi wrote:

I spent a little time with it today, I don't think I let the steel get hot enough to deal with the outside temp.
saw a cool thing in Wayne Goddards $50 knifeshop, on page 94 he is holding the blade between a firebrick and the forge chamber for getting the quenching heat. Something else to try. :)
matthew ohio
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Aw I just noticed I don't have a page 94 in my book, it goes from page 88, then some colour plates the to page 97 :-( Damn
I've got to buy the revised edition I guess... wah! ;-)
MatthewK wrote:

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Same here. :/
Copyright 2001 and no mention of any editions in mine.
"page 94" has a color picture of his first knife.
Alvin in AZ
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snipped-for-privacy@XX.com wrote:

I just ordered a copy of the updated version, full colour and a few extra bits.
Regards Charles
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Okay got my updated copy.
Yep this looks like a really fine small knife, you definitely couldn't get away with this with a larger chunky blade.
Regards Charles P.S. For those of you that have the previous version, it's time to update ;-)
Chilla wrote:

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I did business with these folks for the wool http://store.ceramicstoreinc.com/kilnfurniture.html
Less than five dollars for 12"x24" or you can buy a whole 25'x2' roll for under a hundred. The stuff is light so shipping is no big deal. I bought a whole roll and then split it with a couple of friends. Still have some left for future projects.
Matt, I know that oil quenches are heated to increase viscosity but I don't see how heating up water for a quench is going to do you any good. When the water steams it creates an insulating jacket around the steel and actually slows cooling according to the books and preheating the water would (I would think) not serve you as well as plain cold water. Just my take. The trouble you are having with the 1095 is very likely that you are not getting it hot enough/long enough, or too slow into the quench. Keep in mind that once you hit magnetic you want to let it soak for a minute or two and get just a bit hotter. In alloy steels you want an even longer soak time.
GA

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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:02:28 -0800, Kyle J. wrote:

I was concerned with cold water being to harsh for the 1095 so I heated it up to mellow it out a bit. Yeah, I have to let it soak more. :) I think alvin is right, to darn cold.
matthew ohio
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Nah <g> The optimum time for quenching Japanese swords was in February, ims. The quenching medium was preheated by quenching bars of metal heated in the forge. The quench was sometimes 'reduced seawater' (saturated 'salt' quench), sometimes had decayed vegetable matter to 'cushion' the quench (leaves) and so on. Water is a very active quench. It's really hard on the material in terms of twisting/torquing the blade. A big part of Japanese swordmaking was straightening out the 'hard' blade after quenching. If you're going to quench in water, the first/best fix is saturated salt, and heating it until it's distinctly warm to the hand, but not hot. Another is a 'float' of oil on the top of the water.
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Chas
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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:37:13 -0700, Chas wrote:

Thanks for the advice, this post and about the charcoal too. I used plain water again, just warm to the touch. I was able to get good results with the test pieces. Looked like a tap when I broke them.
I'm going to go scrounge around tonight and see what I can do for oil and some other needed shop items. :) Either way you look at it, for anything thin, water is probably bad.....and it's not like I have a grinder setup. ;)
matthew
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Remember that water-quenched material is usually not drawn again after that. The closest you come is warming the 'bouging' anvil used to straighten out warped blades. That's why they use the clay-mask to retard the quench somewhat in lieu of further heat-treatment.

Work on your water-quench maybe- it really does have some advantages that the Japanese explored pretty fully. That 'rotted leaf' thing is a refinement to the quench, as is saturated sea-salt. You can use 'ice salt' if you want- anything that will raise the boiling point of the water and retard the 'suddeness' of the quench. I hear that 'crankcase' oil is good- both for the carbon saturation and the lowered flash-point. The big dog bladesmiths use proprietary 'quenching' oil that doesn't flash, but it's relatively expensive I guess. I have some given to me years ago, and it just keeps working. I use it for tempering engraving tools- little stuff.

The axiom has always been 'forge thick; grind thin'. All of the heat treatment is done before grinding. Stock removal grinders have always been the one's pushing the steel soas to do as much grinding while the steel is in its annealed state as possible. Learn to 'draw-file' after forging, rather than grinding. The Japanese use a 'sen'; kind of a 'spoke-shaving' tool rather than a file, but the principle's the same. They don't grind the shape of the blade, they forge it- the exceptions are the big scallops and the grooves, those are formed with various 'sen' tools. You can get by without a grinder- step to a polishing lathe for finishing.
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Chas
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