forge pics

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:07:33 -0700, Chas wrote:
Snipped all kinds of cool stuff I appreciate.


Thanks for putting that in perspective. I was looking at lindsay publications. They have an old time collection of machinist arcticles on metal scraping. Do you think that would be worth a look? Seems thats all a sen is.
Dumb kid question, whats a polishing lathe? A stick with wet/dry paper, compound?
matthew ohio
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

absolutely- in fact, you may be able to get pieces of carbide that will fit your needs as well; a step up in technology. The handles can be wood- the Japanese ones are. The blade is very hard steel with a thick scraping edge. They can be shaped, like one made to make a dished groove; flat, angled, edge guides, depth guides- all 'easily' made. The blades held in with wedges.

A motor with wheels on it. Upper end ones are called 'polishing lathes' because they're specifically made with the right bearings (mostly) for that particular work (as opposed to raiding yer old lady's washing-machine motor). Baldor is the industry standard- mine is 1 1/2 horse pushing 14"x 1 1/2" wheels, if I want. I have a 2 horse Chinese one; made to run big grinding stones, and a 3/4 horse to run cardboard wheels. I don't 'grind' on any of them- much <g>
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Japanese swords being close to a medium carbon steel might get away with that but Matthew's 1095's a different story.
I feel as tho the low-medium-high carbon steel catagories are a direct result of experience since thay don't have anything to do with carbon percentages directly.
Low carbon steel doesn't harden after being quenched from non-magnetic, so for sure, no need to draw the temper. ;)
Medium carbon steel will harden but doesn't -have- to have its temper drawn for all uses it's put to.
High carbon steel -has to- have its temper drawn, every stinkin time. Even if it just boiling water for an hour, high carbon steel is more fragile than glass "as quenched".
That's my thinking on it and I figure before they knew carbon and phosphorous (as elements) had anything to do with it, they had other ways to explain the three types of steel.
What do you think, guys? :)

And some "little puppies" too, since that's what I use. ;)
ATF is cheap and will do in a pinch tho, but not as good as the "real" thing. (ATF smokes quite a bit and its smoke can support a flame, BTDT)
I see quenching oil being like motor-oil, I have no real knowledge of what all's in it but it's better stuff than I could come up with myself. :/
:/!
AmZoil's Amatuzio ruined his car engine putting synthetic jet engine oil in it as an experiment. At that point he knew he didn't know crap about motor-oil! :)
Alvin in AZ
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thank you Alvin! That statement rankled me nearly to a rant but I'm no historian and I wasn't going to go there. My gut and experience tell me there is no way you can get away with no temper unless you are woking in a low/medium carbon steel in the first place. And at least some of the swords made by the japanese were pushing high carbon - or parts of it were. There is the technique of pulling the blade out of the quench while it's still pretty hot, too which probably will get you hardened steel that is somewhat tempered. I did that to a short sword and at first it seemed to not get hard but after cooling for the night it hardend up nicely. It may have been somewhat tempered already at that point but I wasn't taking any chances. Been there done that and twice shy. It would be worth doing some experimentation though.

Nasty stuff. Takes a week to get the smell out of everything including the house even if you work outside. Add that to the fire hazard and it aint worth it. I'll stick with my mineral oil thanks.
GA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Case construction and clay-mask quenching. Sorry; that's two ways.
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
You still end up with some seriously brittle steel in the final piece - even if it is all in the edge it will chip badly the first time you smack somthing hard with it. No sir - I would not try it. If it's being done there is more to the story than meets the eye.
GA
wrote

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's one of the reasons that Japanese swords chip so badly when you hit something hard with it. That's why they counsel that it should never touch anything but silk, flesh and the mouth of the scabbard.
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I think your first instinct is correct Chas, that the thin slip they put on the edge makes a difference alright ! And that there is enough heat bleeding down to the edge from the heavily clayed part of the blade to temper it a bit. They are not all that brittle really.
Daithi
wrote

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's not really all that 'thin'. It's a mixture of stone, mud, charcoal dust and steel powder. It's sometimes so thick that they supported it with thin wire.

The edge is- and generally made from a different steel than the core, the cheeks or the back of the blade. Some of the blade, like the core, is virtually mild steel- heat treatment wouldn't make a difference in any case.
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hey Chas,
You have to remember it's pretty hot in Japan most of the time anyway ;-)
Regards Charles
Chas wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yeah; right- Japan gets *cold*. They get lots of snow- why do you think they wear such heavy clothes? February is February, even in Japan. Look at the latitude of the mid to northern islands, much less the mountainous aspect, elevation, etc. The hot areas are the lowlands and the Southerly islands- and them only relatively. Even Okinawa can get chilly sometimes.
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Well that was interesting, I was living under a misconception. When I went to Japan it was in September and it was God awful hot, about 37 C.
Scortchio!
Where I live I've never seen snow and it's never gotten to freezing the lowest being 5 degrees.
Japan goes to -2 on average in winter, so I guess that's cold.
Regards Charles
Chas wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That is about 41 Fahrenheit, right?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thomas Reynolds wrote:

98.6F = 37C 41 F = 5C
Regards Charles
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

sounds reasonable- winter in the mountains is a bit more brisk.

We run from above 100F in the Summer to -25F. in the Winter. Japan ain't so bad.
Chas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There. Fixed. So I could agree with it. :) Chas, I feel as tho you, me and Del are all, right.
I believe it has more to do with not getting the steel hot enough tho.
The cold temperatures (and a breeze?) will effect heating-times to the point you figure... "it's gotta be ready to quench by now, danggit".

Oooo... just saw that in WG's $50 book but he shows using a submerged brick so only so-much of the edge is quenched. (hmmm... maybe you didn't mean it that way?)
I sure as heck don't like the idea of using a brick, in my case anyway, but the idea as a whole sounds like a cool one. :)
That stinkin austenite is soft and flimsy as anything! ;) A brick would only work-good with a rather thick-ass blade, IMO.

Cool. :)
My Q&Ted blades can usually be ground in such a way as to "find" the "straight part hidden in there" somwhere. ;)
Slip joint springs is another matter, those have to be "bent straight". ;)
There are sentences, tables and graphs in MT&P that cover pretty well anything Matthew wants/needs to know about quenching mediums.
Cool water or brine will clean the mill scale off the blade for you better than oil will, go with cool water :) if the blade warps to beat hell, then break it off short and make a shop knife out it. :)
BTDT at least a dozen times. ;)
Alvin in AZ
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:09:37 +0000, alvinj wrote:

Yeah, I was much more mellow today too. That probably affected things more than anything else. I'm so stressed with other crap my hair falling out. Gotta be mellow. :)
I'm going to stop agreeing with you, people might think it odd. ;)

Yeah, I'm begining to love that book. As I'm sure you know, thats why I figured on heating the water. My test pieces 1/8 inch are thick enough where I don't think it matters a whole lot though. I'll find out what I need for the thiner stuff. I was looking at the "heat treating" chapter in the Complete modern blacksmith today too.

I still need to order thinner stock. :) I'll probably do that tonight......well maybe. ;)
I went about town today looking for some tools, I want a couple cross peen hammers. The only local ones are stanely and have fiberglass handles. I have to look harder. Then I looked for a suitable quench container....not much look there either. It doesn't help I was running off of a 2 hour nap......Right now I'm using an old flat-bottomed wok to hold water in. I gotta outdoor wok burner so it's rather convient. Maybe I should just get a bigger wok and poor it back in a container when I'm done. I like woks. :)
BTW I got the 2006 edition of $50 dollar knife shop.
matthew ohio
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What in the heck is going on? :/

That and the fact that I'll change my friggin little mind and disagree with myself and so put you and me both in an awkward situation. :/
I must be getting set in my ways. :/ I haven't disagreed with myself for quite awhile. :)

My school book just plain ol' sucked compared to Allen's! :)
Was thinking I might lighten up on it after going all the way through it in class, you know? Heck no. Just one more disappointment. :)

Where from and how much of it?

Tucson Yellow Pages has a "Tools used" section. Kent's Tools and a few others are in that list.
Kent's is where I can get the best stuff and not have to deal with the new junk. The other places suck, they clean up the used tools before they put them on the shelf. Not only do I have to pay for that "service" many times I don't like what they've done to it. :/
Like old hammer heads and Craftsman wrenches (made by Vlcheck) all for used-junk prices. He's got a website but don't remember him offering any of the dirty, old, used, cheap tools for sale on his website. Way too much trouble, I figure.
I don't know what I bought ;) all I know it's a hammer head and the opposite of a cross-peen and it turned out to have C.C.C.&St.L. stamped on it.
Doggonit I need to take some pictures. :)

For ~10 years I used a tall 3 liter olive oil can. It was just tall enough for a kitchen utilty knife. Never tried a shallow pan. :/
Now I have the bottom ~2/3's of a stainless steel CocaCola can.
Even stainless steel has its uses. ;)
By the time I got around to reselling the top, got more per pound than I gave. :)

Well that explains it. :)
Alvin in AZ
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:26:03 +0000, alvinj wrote:

Life :) Unemployment has given me too much time to think of educational opurtunities. All the cool ones don't pay anything either. It looks like I have to go back to school :( :) I've never been the schooling type.
I really need to clean too, I've been so lethargic everything is ticking me off. :)
In retrospect, that seems like dumb stuff to get stressed about. :)

I haven't yet, I'm thinking a few 18x1.5 inch 1/16 thick pieces from one of the knifemakers outlets. I should probably just place an order with Admiral or something.
matthew ohio
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

BTDT and instead got a job with the railroad climbing poles and digging ditches. :) Went from going to be a pharmacologist to a friggin ditch digger. :) Good choice (for me!) looking back on it.

That's what most the stuff that gets stressed about really is, but only after examination can it be seen? ;)

All I got in 1/16" is 6" wide sheets of English O1 from Enco and 1" wide strips of 1095 from Brownell's and .065" 50100-B at 2".
What ever happened to the 8670-M idea? Cutting tool situation?
Alvin in AZ ps- if I had it my way most of the young guys would work outside and if they want to later, migrate to inside work as age catches up with them?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.