CNC Operator Certification

This just hit my in box and may be of interest to the group, esp. the shop owners or managers.
------------ Who Qualifies as CNC Machine Operators?
Who Qualifies as CNC Machine Operators? Until now, "no method has existed for employers to reliably and consistently validate that an applicant actually has the skills needed for CNC operation." So says Greg Chambers, president of the U.S. National Institute for Metalworking Skills (NIMS). Beginning April 1, 2009, however, NIMS will offer two national certifications for CNC Machine operators: one for CNC milling operations; the other for CNC lathe operations. The certifications will, for the first time, give employers a reliable means of checking the credentials of machining job candidates. "Even in a shrinking economy," Chambers points out, "a large number of good paying jobs go unfilled" due to a lack of consistent training. ------------- https://www.nims-skills.org/web/nims/home ;jsessionidE7B0AD68004559C401765800181028?p_p_id=EXT_18&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=maximized&p_p_mode=view&p_p_col_id=column-2&p_p_col_pos=1&p_p_col_count=2&_EXT_18_struts
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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On Mar 4, 8:00 am, F. George McDuffee <gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us> wrote:

-------------https://www.nims-skills.org/web/nims/home ;jsessionidE7B0AD68004559...
NIMS is growing as a certification entity. Kind of like SAE standards and certs for car mechanics, a NIMS certification tells an employer you actually had to produce a usable part in whatever category you got the cert in.
Later,
Charlie
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Charlie Gary wrote:

Too bad there isnt shop owner certs.
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On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:07:29 -0800, "Scott"

=================Many a truth is oft spake in jest.....
This may have some potential.
I can see two sections:
(1) General business knowledge, and
(2) Machining specific knowledge.
While possession of such certification would not insure success, it could have the possibility to limit or reduce the chance of failure. (There is of course the problem that just because someone knows better, they may not do better, but still...)
I can see this becoming part of the SBA loan or machine leasing application process by asking for your "shop owners or managers certification number" on the form, similar to the ISO9000 question.
What are the groups suggestions for some specific areas/items where knowledge/ability should be verified, and some possible questions (w/answers)?
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

I assure you I wasnt jesting.

I have worked, for a short time, for a few real dingbats that have no business in the trade. One that was a truck driver for 30 years before buying a shop. I finally told him "I have been a machinst for longer than you have been a truck driver, the difference is I dont try to tell you how to drive a truck." He thinks spindle bearings are the same as wheel bearings...
One job lasted 1/2 hour when the bozo yelled at me for bringing up the fact that the 2" (if memory serves) reamer he provided me to do a job with looked like it had been sharpened on a sidewalk and was going to stick, then stuck in the part. Part for F14 landing gear, aerospace in the name of the shop (Boise, Idaho).
Then the nepotism issue raises it's ugly head...
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On Mar 4, 10:48am, F. George McDuffee <gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us> wrote:

<snip>
Totally unecessary.
If the guy stays in business for a long period of time, he knows enough.
The market takes care of it. No need for the government or some other entity to attempt regulation.
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F George McDuffee wrote:

Honestly? I think the people doing the hiring need to be trained how to interview and have a set of questions, written even, which will help determine if a potential employee actually possesses the knowledge and skills necessary to do the job. Nothing is fool poof, there is always going to people way over selling themselves who will slip by.
And dayum, after spending 13 years with one company, then 12 with the next, I've had four different jobs during the last five years looking for a place I like working at (I finally found it) and have been interviewed by people who haven't the slightest clue as to what questions they should be asking a potential new hire. The idiot who hired me at my last job knew all the latest buzzwords related to hard milling and high speed machining but knew fuck all how they applied to the job and had very little understanding of the technology he played a large part in purchasing. And man, I never saw a guy suck his own cock like this dipshit did. At first it was funny, but it eventually became the filthiest thing I've ever seen in my near 30 years in the trade.
Anyway...
The last interview I had from which I was offered a job I turned down was done by someone who actually understood the technology behind high speed mold machining and was a former shop owner himself. I have no doubt he found the right person to fill the position because he knew what questions to ask and had more than fundamental understanding of the technology.
That, in my own jaded opinion, is far more important than some CNC operator certification training project. Training is already readily available to those who want it, why add more hoops to jump through at the expense of others?
--
Black Dragon

pocket pool, n:
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:48:32 -0600, F. George McDuffee
IMO it is hard to certify something such as CNC Operator, especially where the definition of operator varies from place to place. In one place it can be a warm body, in others it can be the ability to setup, edit a program and operate the machine.
To me an Operator is an entry level position, someone who knows or can be trained to operate the machine, perform operator checks, load, unload, check parts and input wear offsets. Where the person and their work ethic is more important than experience. When the person is able to operate and maintain the machinery with little or no supervision, do their own setups and hold close tolerances they are a setup person or setup/operator.

CNC Operator Proficiency Test
http://tinyurl.com/dmcvum
(I just read the old post and there are some typo's that need to be corrected if someone plans to use it.)

Black Dragon covered this, if you can't answer the questions you're not qualified to evaluate an applicant. Some of the questions are designed to present opportunities for discussion with the applicant.
Tom
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Hmmmm...
Maybe what's needed, rather than certification, is a standardized vocabulary. If we all used the same definition of "operator", "programmer", "setup person", etc., then maybe people who actually have real skills, at any level, would be better able to find jobs without getting lost among all the pretenders and wannabees. And maybe companies looking for people could ask and advertise more accurately for what they need.
I'm not talking about laws or rules or ISO standards, or anything like that. Just a common usage. We all know the difference, for example, between manual machines, CNC, and automatic stuff, even though it would be hard to write exact definitions that don't have zillions of exceptions and contradictions. We use CNC machines in manual mode when dusting a fixture or boring chuck jaws, before we put the control in memory and let it run full automatic; but a CNC isn't a manual machine, and it's not at all the same as an automatic screw machine, or a Kingsbury, or whatever. But we know what the words mean, and we can use them effectively.
So certified definitions, or people, aren't necessary to have good words that we can all share, and which might help avoid confusion.
Anybody care to take a shot at some clear terms that we can all start using?
KG
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On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 21:01:31 -0500, Kirk Gordon

--------- Now this looks like a good start that has the potental to produce some real progress.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Oh! & J-Bonkers check question #28........
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I know quite a few people who have been CNC machining for longer than I have (20 years) who couldn't correctly answer one third of the questions on that test. These are top dollar skilled tradesman I'm talking about too, not part loaders / button pushers in production shops.
One guy who couldn't turn the spindle on on a machine with a Delta (Dynapath) control without first writing a program with Mastercam and uploading to the machine went on to be part owner of a mold shop.

The number of people that are totally dependent on CAD/CAM systems and know fuck all about CNC machines and controls themselves is so staggering it's downright scary. In my experience in mold shops, anyway. Is kind of depressing when I think about it and discouraging when I try to teach these things and the recipients don't give a flying fuck about it. :(
--
Black Dragon

Postmen never die, they just lose their zip.
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wrote:

Mebbe I could become a consultant to these shops. :)
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav Congressman) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:21:56 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon
Something makes me think it was your delivery.......lets see

Up to this point you're good.........

This MIGHT be the point where he turned on ya......LOL.....
Tom
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wrote:

Ya' think?
Sheesh.
JC
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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 17:25:44 -0800, "John R. Carroll"

could be.........
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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 15:18:07 +0000 (UTC), Black Dragon

Not my experience and I would be shocked to see it first hand.

Agreed, a few times I have seen where a computer or network goes down and the whole shop pretty much comes to a screeching halt.

I don't waste my time on people who don't care, but it is rewarding (even fun) to teach those who do care and are eager to learn.
Tom
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Charlie Gary wrote:

Certifications mean nothing. I know people who have served formal apprenticeships and have journeyman's papers for either foundry pattern making or mold making who couldn't build a pattern or a mold without having their hands held if their lives depended on it.
This looks like just another way to extract money out of people and business under the guise of being for a good cause.
Feh.
--
Black Dragon

Access holes will be 1/2" too small.
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Black Dragon wrote:

Several decades ago I was a welder at Spectra Physics, they filled a TIG welding position with a guy that was supposed to be certified. He couldn't even turn on the TIG welder, being confused by the plethora of switches and dials. I was a bit miffed at first that I had to train someone making more than me, but he and I ended up becoming good friends. He was certified, a certified hard facer from a copper mine....
Another place hired some bozo from China with a stack of certs almost an inch thick. You'd think he could corner weld a sheet metal cash register box. Nope....
Jon
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:15:56 -0800, Jon Anderson

This is why so many places now days use temps, temp-to-hire agencies, it limits risk and liability. If the person can't perform company just calls the agency and says don't send them back, they don't have to give a reason.
Tom
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