Awl --
There was a brief ad campaign in NYC, to the effect that letting your car idle more than **10 secs** wastes gas.
Iow, the "cost" of restarting your car is equivalent to only about 10 secs worth of gas.
NYC has pretty strict idling laws, which, iirc, limit the legal idling to 3 minutes. I guess that could be whittled down to 30 sec!
fwiw.
One of my cars' engine shuts off instead of idling. It will kick back on whenever it is needed. It's pretty slick.
PV & SD:
Well that's interesting. Just playing devils advocate here, but how much gas would you have to save to pay for the labor & parts on a possible early starter motor and/or flywheel ring gear change out? I suppose the smaller the engine the less ring gear wear, but even small engines would have small starter motors.
It's a pretty common feature. I recall a Porsche 924 that did that back around 1980. I suspect the modern systems leave the engine oriented so it injects fuel and fires a plug as soon as the starter tooth contacts the flywheel, making it a low-impact event.
Hybrid I presume? Full of all those toxic chemicals in that there giganto battery? also probably a newer model that cost a whole bunch to produce from recycled materials that could have gone to better use? Maybe a lot of fresh, raw materials too?
I'm no fan of new cars in almost all circumstances as the energy needed to produce a new car is so high that it strips away all savings for a long time to come... An older, efficient smaller car is almost always a better bet financially and environmentally. The inherent issues with hybrids or battery powered vehicles make them even less attractive until the costs come way down and the technology catches up so that other fuels that are much more efficient can be used.
I'll stick with my fuel efficient and reliable 1997 Nissan for now and take the motorcycle when I can. I'm even considering stipping ALL non-essential items off the Sentra to make it super light weight. Ya never know what type of mileage I might be able to get. :)
Just my $0.02
...And almost on-topic considering the manufacturing techniques and materials slant... Sorry for the OT reply but someone has to pull this anti-logic environmental bus over and give it a ticket sooner or later.
Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:
My Honda Civic has a "Brand New" starter motor, ie. it has never been used in the life of the car. The integrated assist motor is used to start the engine directly, as it is part of the flywheel. It is silent and just about instantaneous. The 150 V battery doesn't have to strain to crank the engine, either.
The 12 V cranking motor is only used if it is so cold the hybrid battery would be harmed by cranking the engine (never gets that cold in MO) or if you need to jump-start the car after killing both batteries. It is also a backup if there is a major malfunction in the hybrid drive system.
The Honda Civic Hybrid, once warmed up, generally shuts the engine off while coasting to a stop at about 9 MPH. If you confuse it by pulsing the brakes, it will shut off after idling for 5 seconds. It also cuts off fuel flow and closes all engine valves to allow a minimum-drag coast anytime you take your foot completely off the gas pedal. It coasts remarkably well in that mode.
Jon
Yeah, a hybrid. Don't blame me, it was my wife's idea. I'm with you, I usually drive an old camry that gets 30 mpg and cost me a whopping $1200 several years ago.
No, the cars that do that today have flywheel (direct drive) starters that are also Generators and are called Hybrids. Mild hybrid does not do any electric drive - just shut off and restart instead of idle.
While some of the hybrids get very, very little from the electric side, I don't think I've seen any that just use automatic engine stop/start and call it a hybrid drive. Which ones are you thinking of?
Embedded energy in car manufacturing is a very controversial subject, but there is good reason to believe that it outstrips fuel cost to drive the car by quite a bit. A study by CNW research a few years ago sent flames through the eco-blogosphere on this subject. They concluded that a Hummer would save more energy than a Prius.
Having tried to track embedded energy on photovoltaic cells and on corn ethanol, I'm not inclined to weigh in on it again, but if you're interested here's a brief roundup of the different angles on it (unfortunately, many of the links are now dead), and CNW's continuing reports:
-- Ed Huntress
If everyone thought like you we would still be driving horse and buggy.
Efficiency made the change over to real vehicles necessary. You can't go from NJ to Kentucky and back in one weekend on a horse and buggy...
But I can certainly do just about anything with my 1997 Nissan Sentra that any new Hybrid small car can do... And with less enviro. impact long-term. When it becomes a necessity to change, then upgrade is logical. Until then, it's called either luxury or waste or both.
Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:
All this "green" shit is just the newest form of far left snobbery.
Wave it off like a bad boofer.
Why do you embrace stupidity? Is there some advantage to it?
The best way to improve your car's gas mileage is to adust the nut behind the steering wheel.
Remember that distinct sound of a MOPAR starter moter cranking. Must have been something good in the design, can't remember too many going out. I've been a FORD head my whole life & still am. I'm here to tell ya most all of'em (besides the 240/300 -6cyl) have always sucked on MPG. But who cared at less than a buck a gal. What happened to the 283 Chevy Impala getting 20+mpg? How bout the 396 Chevelle pushing 350hp getting 20+mpg? Alot of those claims are directly related to driving techniques. Here we are 30yrs later with 1/2 the engines, computer/sensor/ drive by wire controlled everything & still not that much better mpg? Hmmm makes ya wonder about that 100mpg carburetor story that is sitting on the shelf in some gov. warehouse next to the holy grail. I've always wanted to build my own personal commuter car. - basicaly a coil over shock tube chassis, with a 2cyl air cooled B/S torqconverter ,snowmobile type drive. I think I could build it for less than 5k- easy. With the availability of used bone yard stuff proley less than 3k - in parts now. Back & forth to work, 40-50mph,
50-75mpg, safe-(tube roll cage). Use the "big car" (Ford Fusion hybrid of course) for the family. I dont get it. I think the Oil companies & Mr Bush do. Ok an oil man as Pres. you would think we'd have cheap gas? NFW! the highest ever! Ah yes the gool'ol boys club. Guess I'm not a member.\|||/ (o o) ______.oOO-(_)-OOo.____________________ ~ Gil ~ the HOLDZEM=A9=AE king
My post was simply meant to advance the idea that buying a brand new hybrid vehicle to save resources and the environment was not always the best thing to do. Wait until your current vehicle needs to be replaced and then buy the new technology. To scrap a perfectly good product for a newer, more advanced product when the lifespan of the older product has not been reached sort of derails the whole purpose in many cases.
I'm done with this thread... Too far off topic to be legit for me. Anyone can feel free to e-mail me privately about it though. I'll gladly discuss off-line.
Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:
Well at 178,000 miles on my Saturn SL1, I'm getting 36+ mpg during the warm seasons, somewhat less in winter. Recently I only obtained 33 mpg but I towed a 5x8 utility trailer twice on that tank for a total of 110 miles.
Those two trips were to pick up drywall and insulation, something that most guys need that gnarly truck for. I can't tow as much as a truck can carry but since I drive past the building materals place every day on the way to and from work, I can make two trips cheaply.
Are the small hybrids even rated for towing? Gasoline works better at -20F btw than batteries.
Wes
Forgot to mention that I live 15 miles from nearest cable service.
You were saying you don't buy the new technology and alluding that it costs more in the long run--I simply offered that if nobody buys=technology becomes stagnatea.
The problem you are getting to is that is they keep getting worse and worse what with buliding in obsolesence.
IM not done as of yet, problem is it's actually very easy to engineer a product that will still function as intended even after it is 100 years old--in that we are the same, and in my opin, planned obsolecence is downrightr despicable
Too bad all the money changers and corporate officers would be unable to earn a living if it were not for the want of the lowly public when it comes to "needing to have" the newest greatest latest greatest big screen and car and camera phone, I currently have zero interest in those items either.... avoid using money and hopefully let em starve.
When the producers all get together and finally decide to produce only enough for their immediate needs then and only then will the game change.
Its about to turn though IMO, USA made iron utility 6ft fence post at Lowe's are currently $5.39 and the same thing at the local feed store goes for $5.75 go figure...maybe things are coming about finally...
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