Production Machining Vs. Prototype Machining

If anyone is interested I know of a 3 year old Matsuura horizontal with pallet pool for sale. It's located in San Diego, CA. The reasons
these machines don't come on the market is there is no market for them at anywhere close to what they sold for. Owners have no choice but to keep making the payments and hope they can somehow pay it off and make it work in the future when / if there is more work.
E-mail inquires on the Matsuura with pallet pool and extra pallet to jon snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com
I don't think this machine represents a good value but it is for sale at the right price. Details by e-mail only to those financially qualified.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Paid for CNC machines in low overhead locations like a home garage or outside shed may become the rule rather than the exception.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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The fact that you even think that could happen, just further proves how completely and utterly inexperienced you are. (Which goes a long way towards explaining the type of employer that would even consider hiring you).
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On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 15:54:19 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Most companies, real companies require suppliers to be qualified to do the work. Qualifying usually has to do with proving they are a business and posses the equipment, tools and expertise to perform the tasks up to company standards. Which quite often precludes contracting with a home hobby shop filled with a clapped-out equipment.
It's one thing if you are making your own product or prototype but quite another to qualifying to do work for others. With few exceptions a home hobby shop will be competing with other home shops cutting each others throats to split a penny. Home shops are not Low Cost, Low Overhead locations, they are LOW PAY Shops, get it as cheap as they can Locations.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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On Aug 4, 4:44 pm, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Define a "real company". Earl Scheib is a real company, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?

Like Earl Scheib, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?

Are you referring to the clapped-out vise you were trying to pawn off here awhile back?

Earl Scheib. That's a "real company" by your low standards, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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It's pretty easy to define. If you had ever been anywhere near a management or ownership position of *anything* other than a hatchback, you'd know that Tom left out about 50 more reasons why a serious buyer would never do business with Jon Banquer's backyard Fadal graveyard.
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Total ownership.
Total control over.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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No response, huh? You're not going to tell us how impressed the Rockwell Collins auditors would be with your lapped edge finders, 30 year old uncalibrated inspection junk, and two worn out Fadals in the shed? Just more Banquer babble.
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Joe788 proves once again how much I control and own him. He simply can't stop responding to every post I make.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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......says the guy who spent the weekend changing one of his many aliases to "Joe788" so he could pretend to be me.
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jon_banquer wrote:

If that's what's important, you are easily fsking amused.
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On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 17:16:14 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Gave both of them away free to some stupid f'n moron in this group. One Kurt 6" knock off and one nice 6" double lock vise......prepaid shipping using his account is all.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:44:05 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: <snip>

<snip> Everyone that invested heavily in their equipment, tooling, gauges, training, etc. would like to believe this, but the huge increase in off-shore sourcing proves otherwise for the majority of customers. Price is and remains king.
The problem is that you are then attempting to compete with companies paying 25 to 50 per hour wages for qualified help, and the only offsetting cost reductions are freight and customs. As a garage shop, more than likely, because of volume discounts, your material costs will be higher, and you are likely to run into tax, OSHA and zoning problems that simply do not exist in the low wage countries, or are easily handled with a little "tea money."
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:41:54 -0500, F. George McDuffee

Think you are stretching it a bit there George, it's like comparing apples to crackers.
Anyway those who qualified their off-shore suppliers first did OK, those that just went for lowest cost off-shore supplier without a source inspection to qualify them usually got screwed.
But Jon is proposing to do work at the bottom rung competing against other garage shops for outfits sending work to them and are lets just say a little less than reputable for the most part. For if they were reputable companies they would need to inspect and qualify their suppliers operation and a garage shop filled with clapped-out machines and equipment, no liability or workers comp. insurance etc. would not normally meet the minimum requirements.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:58:25 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

------------ Indeed, but there are many tacit, implied, and implied conditions and circumstances.
In many ways John's model is a regression of 125-150 years or more to machining as a cottage industry organized around the family. This was also [and may continue to be] a fairly common model in several other countries such as Switzerland, where most of the watch parts were produced in family owned cottage industries for assembly by their watch/clock companies.
There are always exceptions, for example, an individual with "walk on water skills," long term high level contacts, and unique machines, may well be able to make a very good living. The problem is that in a discussion of this type, we should consider the large majority, and not the [exceptional] minority. The days when an individual with a lathe and Bridgeport in their garage [or a few Traubs or Bechlers in their basement] could expect to make a living are gone, along with bell-bottom pants, hullahoops, Nashs, Hudsons and pet rocks.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 21:30:54 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Rural areas, real shops, smart, skilled guys?
Where you are a dumb ass, poses no special skills, are planning on putting a clapped-out machine or two in a residential garage in a city.....which has problems written all over it, local zoning laws, Neighbors complaining of noise (VMC, air compressor, air tools) single phase power, etc.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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"Huge payments"? Your firm belief is completely ridiculous and incorrect, because you're basing it on NO facts or experience whatsoever. What kind of annual sales are you planning on, if you think $1000 or $3000/month is a "huge payment".
"Uncertain manufacturing economy"? Why are so many shops (like Kirk Gordon's employer), still buying equipment as fast as they can install it and staff it? You don't know or converse with *anybody* in ANY "high end" shop. I know of a few aerospace shops that have a 5+ year backlog right now, and their customers are scrambling to find *qualified* suppliers. Jon Banquer's backyard Fadal graveyard with uncalibrated 1982 inspection junk picked up at auction, will not qualify as a supplier.

"The kind of quality CNC vertical machining center you can buy for $12,000" is the kind of machine that will guarantee you lose every single job to a shop like mine who's bidding a $120/hr shop rate, even while you're bidding a $40/hr shop rate.
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I agree. The more lucrative work requires things like ISO certification which a garage shop can never get. Even the places that don't require certification do require things like inspection reports. Even repair work requires knowledge & expertise to get the job done right. I like that way of thinking....low pay shops.
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You need to look at the other end of the spectrum. We have more than one machine that is getting close to the million dollar range. A bridge mill with 20 ft. of travel does not come cheap. Neither is the parts that go on it. This machine is not used as a production machine....The most parts it has done in a run is 36. Due to the capacity of it....there is virtually no competition locally. Another example is our horizontal boring mill 140" x 90" of travel (I remember the days when I thought a 20" X 40" machine was pretty good sized....) also a high $$$ machine that has tons of capacity. You simply can't machine parts that weigh 12,000 lbs on a $50,000 machine. We also have a 17 pallet MAM72-63V. Originally it was purchased for production....and it was used for that for the first 2 years of service. Various contracts ran out....That was when we discovered the true flexibility of the system. Right now we are in a mighty production run of 12 parts....6 lefts & 6 rights. Approx 5 hour run time each. Get the first ones proved out....then run all night. While its running...program & set up our next run of 8 parts. We do shut it down on the weekends tho....
Mainly for tax incentives, we got a H plus 630 this spring...150 tools fully optioned. Guess what....production runs of maybe 12 parts.....typically 2 or 3 tho. Mainly due to its capacity...that machine is more than paying for itself also.
The 5 axis waterjet is also a spendy machine.....yet it more than pays for itself also doing small runs. Plenty of work for that machine too.
We also have a bunch of smaller 40 taper machines....Matsuura's of various vintages....from a 760 to a V-plus 800. An odd Mori or 2 completes the lineup of the smaller stuff. An occasional production run is the exception rather than the rule. All of these machines paid for themselves long ago. Could the work that goes on these machines be done on a Haas? Of course....but I doubt the Haas would last long with the demands we put on them.
All of these machines (minus the waterjet & the H plus) have paid themselves off long ago. No payments on any of these....of course you have the maintenance overhead...however with a tight PM schedule this is minimal. Capacity (as in size or turnaround or experience, ect) & the right customers is what makes the $$$. Granted there have been times when one machine was not paying for itself...however with the variety of machines and experience we have the cost is more than offset.
Most places that I have seen go under did so because they were leveraged to the max....buying 10 machines at once while depending on 1 or 2 customers. The other places I see struggling are guys with 3 machines...(low end like Haas or Fatal or Hurco) that are not reliable. 1 of their machines goes down for a couple of days....all of the sudden customers are pissed because they can't deliver. No $$$ coming into the shop....no $$$ to fix their machine. I have heard of more than one shop that when a machine goes down....they let it stay down.
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A very good post with decent substance in regards to the other end of the spectrum but most machining job shops in the U.S. don't have those types of machines and I don't see them converting what they have now to start doing that type of work... at least not at this point. The rest of the posts that follow the other end of the spectrum post don't add any real substance and aren't worth commenting on.
At this point I see an industry (mainstream machining job shops) headed for a major consolidation and perhaps becoming a niche market.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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