Real World-How many of your longt ime customers are now closed?

How are your customers and vendors holding up in 2009?
I had two customers shutdown and close just last week. One was an 11 year account and the other was an 8 year account. The 11 year account fired and dismissed 859 employees. The 8 year account fired and dismissed 549 workers. Both were in Tennessee.
There will be more, fortunately the work that the 11 year account was doing is being divested and I have already been contacted by the fired employees who are now with new companies about resuming the same work for someone new.
I'm in Georgia, how is your area doing?

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About the same as you. One customer folded up last year. Another said the "B" word about ten days ago. Another good one isn't going racing again any time soon, so their R&D is dormant. Then there's the guys who don't say the "B" word, they just suddenly need us to play bank and put them on a payment schedule. Where's all this bailout money I keep hearing about?
Later,
Charlie

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:14:23 -0800 (PST), Charlie Gary
<snip>
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<snip> ===================You asked ......
-------------- 'RESCUED' CITI BUYING $50M JET JENNIFER GOULD KEIL and CHUCK BENNETT Last updated: 10:06 am January 26, 2009 Posted: 1:02 am January 26, 2009
Beleaguered Citigroup is upgrading its mile-high club with a brand-new $50 million corporate jet - only this time, it's the taxpayers who are getting screwed.
Even though the bank's stock is as cheap as a gallon of gas and it's burning through a $45 billion taxpayer-funded rescue, the airhead execs pushed through the purchase of a new Dassault Falcon 7X, according to a source familiar with the deal.
The French-made luxury jet seats up to 12 in a plush interior with leather seats, sofas and a customizable entertainment center, according to Dassault's sales literature. It can cruise 5,950 miles before refueling and has a top speed of 559 mph.
There are just nine of these top-of-the-line models in the United States, with Dassault's European factory churning out three to four 7Xs a month <snip> ---------------------- http://www.nypost.com/seven/01262009/news/nationalnews/just_plane_despicable_152033.htm
-------------- Thain Said to Pay $1.2 Million to Redecorate Office (Update1)
By Peter S. Green
Jan. 22 (Bloomberg) -- John Thain, the former Merrill Lynch & Co. chief executive officer ousted today, spent $1.2 million redecorating his downtown Manhattan office last year as the company was firing employees, a person familiar with the project said.
Thain hired Los Angeles-based decorator Michael Smith, chosen by President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle to redecorate the White House, CNBC reported today. Thain paid Smith $837,000 and his purchases included $87,000 for area rugs, $25,000 for a pedestal table and $68,000 for a 19th century credenza, CNBC said. <snip> --------------------- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aPsokRQkdnqM
----------------- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aYwo1tZqGFgA
If you think your stomach can stand it, there's lots more on the web.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:48:15 -0600, F. George McDuffee
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<snip> ==========A follow-up to my follow-up
----------------- * JANUARY 26, 2009
Lending Drops at Big U.S. Banks Top Beneficiaries of Federal Cash Saw Outstanding Loans Decline 1.4% Last Quarter
By DAVID ENRICH
Lending at many of the nation's largest banks fell in recent months, even after they received $148 billion in taxpayer capital that was intended to help the economy by making loans more readily available.
Ten of the 13 big beneficiaries of the Treasury Department's Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, saw their outstanding loan balances decline by a total of about $46 billion, or 1.4%, between the third and fourth quarters of 2008, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of banks that recently announced their quarterly results.
Those 13 banks have collected the lion's share of the roughly $200 billion the government has doled out since TARP was launched last October to stabilize financial institutions. Banks reporting declines in outstanding loans range from giants Bank of America Corp. and Citigroup Inc., each of which got $45 billion from the government; to smaller, regional institutions. Just three of the banks reported growth in their loan portfolios: U.S. Bancorp, SunTrust Banks Inc. and BB&T Corp.
The loan figures analyzed by the Journal exclude some big TARP recipients that haven't reported fourth-quarter results yet, such as Wells Fargo & Co.
The overall decline in loans on the 13 banks' books -- from about $3.36 trillion as of Sept. 30 to $3.31 trillion at year's end -- raises fresh questions about TARP's effectiveness at coaxing banks to reopen their lending spigots.
"It has failed," said Campbell Harvey, a finance professor at Duke University's business school. "Basically we have dropped a huge amount of money ... and we have nothing to show for what we actually wanted to happen." <snip> ---------------------- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123293041915314113.html
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

wrote:
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Except they didn't George. What dropped was the market for securities. Bank lending is actually up. What is down is the selling of loans and origination fees. A 14% decline in bank lending is actually an increase. Banks haven't been lenders for ten years.
JC

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:26:36 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
  Quoted Text Here  
===========Sounds like "yes! we have no bananas...."
International countertrade [barter] that bypasses the banks seems to be taking off.
Any idea how much the typical countertrade transaction, say 100M$US might save by cutting the banks out?
--------------- Nations turn to barter deals to secure food
By Javier Blas in London
Published: January 26 2009 23:32 | Last updated: January 26 2009 23:32
Countries struggling to secure credit have resorted to barter and secretive government-to-government deals to buy food, with some contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
In a striking example of how the global financial crisis and high food prices have strained the finances of poor and middle-income nations, countries including Russia, Malaysia, Vietnam and Morocco say they have signed or are discussing inter-government and barter deals to import commodities from rice to vegetable oil. <snip> The countries have not disclosed the value of any deals, and some have refused even to confirm their existence. Officials estimated that they ranged from $5m for smaller contracts to more than $500m for the biggest.
Josette Sheeran, head of the United Nations’ World Food Programme, said senior government officials, including heads of state, had told the WFP they were facing “difficulties” obtaining credit to purchase food. “This could be a big problem,” she told the Financial Times. {and we think we have problems because we can't get a loan for a new car...} <snip> Last week, Malaysia’s commodities minister, Datuk Peter Chin Fah Kui, said Kuala Lumpur had already signed a barter deal swapping palm oil for fertilizer and machinery with North Korea, Cuba and Russia. He said Malaysia was talking to Morocco, Jordan, Syria and Iran about other barter deals. <snip> Thailand, the world’s largest exporter of rice, is discussing barter deals with Middle Eastern countries, including Iran. The Philippines, the world’s largest importer of rice, has secured rice needs for this year through a diplomatic agreement with Hanoi.
The countries’ struggle to obtain credit to import food is boosting the price of domestic crops. Ms Sheeran said that prices of crops in some African countries were rising sharply even as international food commodities prices had fallen from last summer.
The move to barter shows the global food crisis that started last year is far from over. ---------------- http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3e5c633c-ebdc-11dd-8838-0000779fd2ac.html
Any of our posters in the managerial end of the business doing or thinking of doing any countertrade/barter deals?
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
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Nothing. It's actually rather messy and recriminations aren't uncommon. The only reason for a government to do this is the desire to avoid civil unrest - something that's manifesting with increasing frequency. Latvia, Lithuania, Spain, Greece, China..... The list is growing and so is the level of violence. I'll bet Blackwater's client list has shifted remarkably. They might be almost exclusively be providing security for people in the financial sector at this point. Branch managers will soon rate an armored caddy and a two man detail - maybe.
<snip>
Remember my year old admonition about a modern day Father Coughlin?

On Jan 26, 1:48 pm, F. George McDuffee <gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us> wrote:
om> wrote:
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At least the bastards could of bought American......Gulfstream G650..... http://www.gulfstream.com/gulfstreamg650 /

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:48:15 -0600, F. George McDuffee
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<snip> ================For all of you folks that opened their windows, leaned out and shouted "I'm mad as hell and won't take it anymore."
------------------------------------------- Citigroup will not take possession of new aircraft
By STEPHEN BERNARD – 54 minutes ago
NEW YORK (AP) — Pressured by the Obama administration, Citigroup Inc. reversed course and said it will not take delivery of a corporate jet it previously planned to purchase.
The canceled deal comes amid a chorus of concerns from politicians who are worried about how banks that have received federal funds are spending the money. Citigroup has received $45 billion in capital from the government in recent months amid the ongoing credit crisis.
"Citi has no intent to take delivery of any new aircraft," the New York-based bank said in a statement Tuesday.
An official in President Barack Obama's administration reached out to Citigroup on Monday to reiterate Obama's position that such jets aren't "the best use of money at this point," and are "an outrageous use of funds" for a company getting taxpayer dollars, said a White House official who spoke on condition of anonymity to more freely describe private conversations. <snip> -------------- http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hhiE9y_NtCV3wMLmx8IG8e8cUv7AD95VMVIG0
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Speaking of closures, what guarantees are in place to see that those receiving funds from the "stimulus" packages are being spent on domestic services and products? Thereby supporting and shoring up OUR economy and not someone else's.
Same for banks and business. What guarantees are in place so we are helping domestic banks, businesses, financial firms that are owned and operated in the USA?
Same for the increased social programs.
Tom

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:02:20 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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Interesting the bill calls for using american steel in projects yet they wont use E-Verify
Use american steel but let cheap labor by illegals build it.
The whole bill stinks !
Dave b

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:02:20 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
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-------------------- Another group participant has had the light bulb go on...
A key difficulty in this discussion is what the word "our" means.
A major problem is that it is very difficult to now identify American corporations by their name or headquarters address. By dollar volume and sources of income, many famous corporations are no longer American. Two poster children for this are Caterpillar and Deere, which explain their howls when "buy American provisions" were suggested.
Many more apparently American operations are now foreign owned subsidiaries. This is particularly true in the basic infrastructure materials sectors such as cement and re-bar, thus profits go overseas.
Even more alarming is the apparent use by our planners of an economic model from the 1960s (or even the 50s) where extensive manufacturing still occurred in country, to design the "rescue" operations.
Because there is little to no consumer manufacturing [e.g. clothes, shoes, electronics, furniture, and increasingly automobiles] left in this country, "juicing up" consumer demand through easier credit will not "activate" a high multiplier economic sector [one where the money boosts spending in multiple levels as it changes hands] as it did in the past with several levels of vendors, suppliers and support services, down to the cafes outside the factories. It will however do wonders for China and other areas where the high value added -- high economic multiplier manufacturing jobs are now located.
Which segues into the assumption that more credit is all that is required. IMNSHO the problem, at least over the last two administrations, has been grossly excessive amounts of cheap credit, leading to individual over-consumption, inappropriate lending [i.e. little to no possibility of repayment] and organizational capital misallocation, e.g. "leveraged buyouts." While credit may indeed be the key to recovery, its use must be restricted to mainly productive activities that result in an actual increase in the quality and quantity of goods and services
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participants "Profit" is an obsolescent concept where the goods/services you create are sold for more than the cost of their production, resulting in a net increase in wealth. It does *NOT* mean taking money out of my pocket and putting in yours -- this is theft…]
It now appears that the major banks and quasi banks are incapable of grasping this fundamental concept, and its business as usual, and more of the same, only better [i.e. more/bigger bonuses, bigger corporate jets, bigger LBOs, etc.].
Traditionally, two main factors have been blamed for the depth/length of the "great" depression, namely higher tariffs [Smoot-Hawley-Grundy] and competitive currency devaluations.
As the US has a considerable current accounts trade deficit for years, a large reduction in international trade would be all to "*OUR*" [as in the peoples'] good [although quite likely painful to our cost shifting/tax evading "international" corporations]. http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gandsbal.txt
FWIW -- it is estimated that 250k$ represents one job. While the number of jobs gained because of exports is widely publicized, as there is a negative trade balance, there is a net job *LOSS*, and more importantly, the jobs gained by exports tend to be in the low value added -- low multiplier sectors, such as unprocessed agricultural products, while the jobs lost due to imports tend to be in the high value added -- high multiplier sectors such as machine tools, electronics, automobiles. Note that Social Security is about to go into deficit because of the export of the high paying high value added jobs, and the resulting loss in payroll taxes. Again good for the transnational corporations but bad for the people. The cutthroat currency devaluations have already begun. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid 601109&sid®_iJ8Ff6QT4&refer=home
You are well advised to question if a bailout for "Wall Street," will do anything [positive] for "Main Street."
"qu'ils mangent de la brioche." -- Let them eate cake... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake on how to spin this.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote in news:84p6o4941g2erju3hjoa0tqql4t0ilu7l6@ 4ax.com:
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First off there hasn't been any stimulus bill passed so far. The TARP or "bank bailout" or "Wall St. bailout" as it has become known as is the government investing in or buying a piece of a troubled bank.
To put it in a simplified nutshell the mortgage crisis caused a crisis in confidence in banks and financial institutions who were/are all invested up to their ears in some of this bad debt. This caused a confidence crisis and runs on a couple of banks. This caused the banks and financial institutions to stop lending money and hang on to their cash lest they be the next victims of a run.
The credit freeze causes businesses to not be able to invest, borrow to make payroll, etc.
The government mainly spent the first $350 billion buying preferred stock or debt in these banks. The idea being that government backing would restore confidence and free up credit. In effect the government has become part owners in private institutions.
Now to make an analogy, lets say you own a machine shop and you can get some work that you can profit from. But nobody will lend you the money you need to buy the machine, lets say a Makino HMC, that you need in order to get the work. So the government comes along and offers to buy a piece of your business temporarily, until you can make some money and pay them back.
So you take their money and call the Makino dealer and your customer with the good news. But someone in the press gets wind that you are going to use that money to buy a fancy, expensive, Japanese machine tool and all hell breaks loose.
Next thing you know, powerful politicians are on the phone telling you that you need to go rent an American made Haas and you'd better love it. You tell them that renting a Haas will actually cost you more money than buying the Japanese HMC and will hurt your business. Too bad the pols say, we can't afford the bad PR your purchase is giving us.
And that in a nutshell is the deal. And it's why the government shouldn't be in an ownership position. And why neither you or I or some politician should be telling Citi Group what to do with their money and their business. And it is also why when they come to Washington looking for a handout the politicians need to tell them no.

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A legitimate point, if money is given to a machine shop they need to buy the best machine tool for their shop under their particular set of parameters.
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My point being: If Haas were to ask for government money they can get in line to make their case. If Makino were to ask for government money they can get in what ever line their country has.
As for the outcry when a recipient of government bailout funds went out and bought a private jet is EXACTLY THE POINT. Just like there was a public outcry when auto company execs flew private jets to DC to ask for money! Had nothing to do with the make of the Jet and everything to do with WASTE, perception and maybe even a feeling of entitlement (on managements part). Private jets are hardly necessary, they are convenient, they are certainly a fabulously luxurious FUN way to travel but hardly cost effective or necessary. If people running publicly traded company and you want to travel in such a manner, fine, use your own money to purchase and operate your own private jet. Privately owned company wants to spend money on private transportation fine, you earned it, you're paying for it, enjoy.
Now add into the mix that they bought a new foreign built private jet. If all things are "near" equal they should have purchased domestic.
I was working for a company making very complex missile components for Raytheon. The EU requires a certain amount of "Domestic" content or else they wouldn't buy Raytheon products. Guess which job Raytheon pulled and moved production to the EU to comply? Ours, and in ten years of supplying Raytheon never a customer reject or a late delivery. They pulled the job because the value allowed them to comply with the EU requirements. The kicker, they ended up paying 300% more for the exact same parts.
If the EU were to pay the same or even a 10-20% premium for domestic content that would make some sense but 300% is not quite fair. Same for here, if the stimulus and bailout packages are to be used for OUR stimulus I would like to see manufacturing go to Anthony's production facilities rather than China or else ware even if we pay a slight (reasonable) premium for domestic.
And why in hell are any of these guys who ran these bailout companies into the ground are deserving of BONUSES.....your contract requires us to pay you a $10,000,000 bonus, here you go instead of cash we are giving you a wheel barrel full company stock worth exactly $10,000,000 when you arrived, it's now worth $1,000 congratulations. The new guy that takes over and helps the company out of the dumps and turns things around is entitled to compensation but not the ones that rode the high flyers into the ground, if anything they should be stripped of their private assets and turned into someone's jail house bitch (role reversal, having done to them what they were doing to everyone else).
Tom

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:14:23 -0800 (PST), Charlie Gary
<snip>
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<snip> --------------- A historical snippet from a much longer article in the UK Telegraph. Well worth reading if you have an interest in the US/global economy. Much better/more in depth coverage of the US situation from outside [the US] publications such as this, the Financial Times and the Economist.
TARP is the bastard offspring of the RFC.
----------- <snip> ==>A third* of the rescue funds in Hoover's Reconstruction Finance Corporation had been embezzled.<=<snip> The twin blasts of fiscal and monetary stimulus have been massive. In short order the Fed has slashed rates to zero. It is now conjuring money out of thin air on an industrial scale, buying $600bn of mortgage bonds to force down the cost of home loans, and propping up the commercial paper market to avoid mass corporate default. Ben Bernanke, a Depression junkie, is proceeding with a messianic sense of certainty. The wash of money should ensure that the next 18 months will not mimic the cascade of disasters from late 1931 to early 1933. It buys time. But it does not solve the deeper problem, which is that a West addicted to Ponzi credit has put off the day of reckoning with ever more extreme monetary policy with each downturn, stealing prosperity from the future.
It will be an extremely delicate task to right the ship again. Central banks will have to extricate themselves from their venture into the bond markets without setting off a bond debacle in 2010 or 2011. Governments will have to map out of a path of Puritan discipline for year after year. <snip> ----------- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4339501/Bad-news-were-back-to-1931.-Good-news-its-not-1933-yet.html
* This is a factoid widely quoted on the web, but I have been unable to track down any original source such as court verdicts or congressional hearings. Any of our readers know of references to primary sources?
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

wrote:
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http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/bg317.cfm
JC

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:53:28 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
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------------ Thanks -- looks a lot more reputable than "billybobsblog.com"
FWIW -- Hoover was president until March 4, 1933, so the RFC was his program up to that time. FDR did however expand and redirect the RFC.
The degree to which outright fraud, embezzlement and theft both caused and exacerbated the '29 market break [and by extension the 2008 financial/credit implosion] appears to be greatly underestimated/underappreciated. Stupidity as a rationale and excuse will only stretch so far.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

wrote:
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Are you sure of that George? LOL People keep testing the limits.
JC

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "John R. Carroll"
11:42:45 -0800 in alt.machines.cnc :
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    The difference between stupidity and genius, is that Genus has its limits. -- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that F. George McDuffee
-0600 in alt.machines.cnc :
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    Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out. I think Will Rogers said that in the 30s.
    There is a rule of thumb that says when everybody is talking about the market, get out and buy real estate. When everybody is talking about real estate, get into stocks. When your waitress is a getting a realtor's license, it's time to get out. I can never remember who it was who said in late 1928, early 1929, that he knew it was time to get out of the market, when his bootblack started offering stock market advice. As it was then, so it is now, and no doubt will be in the future: "The market is only going to go up, better buy now, 'this time it will be different'." Yeah, right, and I have some REITs for sale, bundled by the Brooklyn Bridge Investment company.     Trust me.
pyotr
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-- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!