So who's gonna be worse for manufacturing...

"vinny" wrote in news:fqcma8$57j$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.org:

It's no wonder the rest of the world hates us. 2006 was a record year for manufacturing in the US. When the numbers are in for '07 they will surpass '06 AFAICT. The US accounts for 1/5 of all the manufacturing output in the world. US manufacturing exports are at record highs. Profits are as well. Yet all we do is bitch.

So where is the problem? Oh yeah, employment. Hence the nonsensical rhetoric from Obama and Hillary. I wish someone would explain to these two corrupt hacks that NAFTA has nothing to do wiith China. They sound like idiots out on the campaign trail.

Employment has shrunk in US manufacturing as productivity has risen. You can blame all of those shiny CNC machines, computers, robots, and software. But China and Mexico have f*ck all to do with it. Nor are they directly responsible for wage stagnation in manufacturing. That's the result of a combination of productivity increases putting people out of work and the rising cost of healthcare benefits.

Despite all of the gloomy economic talk these days, manufacturing seems to be plugging along at a good pace. Machine tool sales appear to be up at the moment. The "weak" dollar is no doubt helping too.

Be careful what you vote for. Protectionism might feel good but it's a bad deal. The US is still the world's largest exporter of goods and services. Since 1980 some 130% of GDP growth has come directly from trade. Does anyone honestly think we can ban or tax imports and have our exports be unaffected?

China Replaces U.S. As World's Largest Exporter: Trade Imbalances Could Cause Financial Upheaval; MAPI Analyst Implores U.S., IMF To Act Now On China's Yuan

China could become world's largest exporter by 2010 16/09/2005 - China could overtake the US and Germany to become the largest exporter in the world in the next five years. By then, Chinese goods and services could represent as much as 10% of global trade compared with 6% at present, according to the OECD.

China overtakes U.S. as world?s leading exporter of information technology goods

12/12/2005 - China overtook the United States in 2004 to become the world?s leading exporter of information and communications technology (ICT) goods such as mobile phones, laptop computers and digital cameras, according to OECD data.

That has a lot to do with the low wages.

I tried to explain to a co-worker that not that many years ago, there would have to be rows and rows of bridgeports, engine lathes, and grinders to make our products and our per piece price to do that today would be astronomic. We would also be out of business.

One part we make on a mazak, I might be able to make 4 or 5 a day using a engine lathe and bp and that would be after doing it for a few days to learn the tricks. That is using carbide. Hate to think of doing it with HSS.

The mazak multiplex spits them out every 7 minutes. That is a 60x improvement but our operator runs two multiplex's so it is a 120x improvement. He could run three w/o overloading him.

Wes

That is for sure. There is one pot of money that the employer works from. It doensn't matter what sort of fiction about paying into SS being half and half, the employeer looks at it as part of the employees pay, both halves. Same for healthcare I believe there are a lot of HR types getting hammered to find the best deals in healthcare because cutting benefits never goes over well with the workers.

If heathcare costs were not rising so quickly, take home wages would not be as flat as they have been on average.

Wes

================= These numbers may well be correct (even if selected) however as the employees inflation adjusted hourly wages have remained about where they were in 1975, and the benefits [medical and retirement] have been reduced or disappeared, where is the money going?

The federal, state, and local taxes keep going up, while the services go down, and the inflation adjusted stock prices are static to falling. Corporate dividends are disappearing.

The data continues to show a current accounts [trade] deficit of about 1.5 to 2 billion dollars *PER DAY*.

Thus the problem appears to be rampant fradulant/misleading corporate book-keeping and gross tax evasion, exacerbated by grossly excessive CEO pay, rather than any lack of worker productivity or exports.

Thus the "solution" appears to be a "super" Sarbanes-Oxley accounting standards act, to pound honest book-keeping up the corporations nose with a sledge hammer, and draconian RICO style tax enforcement with CEO, CFO, etc prison time and asset confiscation, rather than tinkering around the edges with the trade treaties, which are at most a symptom rather than a cause.

As the Fortune-500 tin-cup corporations and their grossly overpaid CEOs are the major campaign contributors in the US elections, and who are also among the major benefactors of so-called "free trade," it should be clear nothing will be done of any substance to correct the problems.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

I hate to have to say it, but I think your right.

Explain this then, I work in a dept of 6 guys. 4-5 years ago there were 4. Newer equipment, but the same amount. Better yet, don't explain it, I don't wanna know. Nevermind.

F. George McDuffee wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

We have some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. Certainly highest amongst the nations we compete with. Add in the increased cost of healthcare benefits and social security taxes and the employer has less to pay out in dollar per hour wages. Look into "real total compensation" figures and you'll see that total compensation has in fact risen.

That's a real problem there. Not to mention interest on the debt.

So what? Total manufacturing output, value and profits have continually risen outside of recessions.

Nonsense. You keep looking for boogymen in the corporate world. The real theives are in Washington.

More nonsense. We could start by bringing corporate taxes in line with other industrialized nations.

It hasn't helped them to reduce their tax rates any, has it?

=========== If you needed more "proof" click on

and a whole bunch more google on < obama nafta canada >

Summary: For the Canadians, a key point of concern was Obama's sharp criticism of the North American Free Trade Agreement. DeMora wrote Wilson that in the Chicago meeting, Goolsbee "candidly acknowledged the protectionist sentiment that has emerged, particularly in the Midwest, during the primary campaign" but reassured Rioux that Obama's NAFTA-bashing "should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans." Three weeks later, Canada's CTV News reported that a "senior member" of Obama's campaign had phoned Wilson personally to advise him to "not be worried about what Obama says about NAFTA."

Not only does this show Obama's true feelings about NAFTA, but also shows that Hillary is smart enough to use advisers/envoys that know how to keep confidential messages out of the papers, however this does smell like a typical Clinton [or Carl Rove] plant....

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).