still work out there - MN



The above has something to do with it.

Yep, but who gets screwed, people like me that has not owed anything to anybody for 25 years now. (well except for the Dallas business & BPP taxes) for stuff that's been paid for 25 years. Interest rates on savings & CD's have crashed. I guess I should have taken out a big loan that I couldn't pay & the gimmyMent would bail me out with my tax money cause I was stupid, but they use my tax money & bail out stupid people & the Bear S big corps..
In my next life I think I will be a dope dealer instead of a machine shop owner. No tools , machines to buy, no BPP taxes, cash payment..
Sad what this has come to...
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Why wrote:

You left out: A short life expectancy, crazed drug users killing you, and no retirement plan.
--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

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Why wrote:

Everyone but the select few that rake the pot.

Jesus H Christ, wasn't one enough for ya'. LOL
--

John R. Carroll
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:32:10 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<snip>

<snip> ===========History clearly shows this has never happened. Apparently governments can no more avoid debasing their currency than people can avoid getting old, so its not a moral/ethical thing. This was occurring long before the introduction of paper currency. http://www.unrv.com/economy/roman-coins.php http://www.virginia.edu/artmuseum/VirtualExhibitions/Coins/hoard_analysis.html The results have always been the same.
There are currently no US treasury dollars in circulation, rather only Federal Reserve [a private corporation] certificates [check your bill fold to verify] with no backing, i.e. a totally fiat currency. This is how the constitutional mandate for at least gold/silver *BACKED* governmental currency [Article I 10] is evaded.
The only "people" that could possibly even attempt this is the US government, and as Ron Paul is not going to be elected president, the gold dollar will not be (re)introduced. Given the convoluted, baroque, and arcane nature of the current US economic/financial environment, a new stable currency may well be the "kiss of death."
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

You must have different history books than I have here George <G> The US has teamed up with the Japanese, Chinese and Europeans many times in the last 40 years to prop up the dollar. In fact, my just having written "prop up the dollar" ought to ring a bell.
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:31:25 GMT, "John R. Carroll"

=========Indeed, but I have the data which trumps the history books.
Tinkering around the edges to reduce the rate of inflation to match that of your neighbors is not the same as eliminating inflation and a long-term stable currency.
Check the US CPI over the last 40 years (and all the way back to 1913). Note that the CPI has been "revised" several times through "hedonic" adjustment, substitution of generic for name brand products, etc. Uniformly the results of these "revisions" has been to lower the amount/rate of change (or alternatively loss in the "value" of the dollar). http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet
one dollar in Feb 1978 is equivilant to $2.57 in 2008 ond dollar in 2008 is equivilant to $0.31 in 1978 click on http://www.bls.gov/data/home.htm for their calculator.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

No. You have data that shows US Dollars devaluing over time but not with respect to the other major currencies of the world. Great efforts have been made to create relative stability between those currencies. That policy wasn't abandoned untill the Bush administration took office and they embraced their new policy quietly, but gleefully none the less.
--

John R. Carroll
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:32:10 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<snip>

<snip> ==========Globalization with its massive capital transfers from China, Japan, and the oil states, is what allowed the bubbles to expand to their current grotesque extent. Without these huge amounts of external capital the bubbles would have been choked off years ago by their own excesses.
You provide insight into the role that the elimination of the usury laws had and are having in this debacle. However it is a common error to assume that these laws somehow protect *ONLY* the borrower. In many cases the protections are much greater to the lenders and lending institutions, and society at large, as it is both an adage and a well-verified fact that "you can't get blood out of a turnip," and people living in "hoovervilles" don't pay but rather consume taxes.
In the ages past when usury laws existed, bubbles, booms and inflation were all checked by the interest caps, without the need for government intervention. As these acted like fuses to prevent "overloads" before serious damage could be inflicted on the basic economy, their removal was the equivalent of putting pennies behind the fuses because they keep blowing, with the foreseeable results that fires will occur when the wiring overheats or that the entire circuit will be lost when the wiring burns out, even without a fire. The only question is when will the entire house burn down. We are about to find out if today is the day.
Equally damaging are the excessively low rates for domestic US savers, which are negative in many cases when the effects of inflation and taxes are considered.
The conclusion is clear and easy to understand. Reimpose the usury laws, and mandate a minimum payment on bank savings of at least inflation + tax effect. If the banks balk, then "Postal Savings" can be re-introduced. The problem is that none of this will ever happen.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

I guess I didn't make myself clear. The revisions to the various laws protect ONLY the lender and are completely at the expense of the borrower.

I couldn't agree more George.

Never say never. Some cataclysmic series of events could change things quickly. Hell, just look at Iraq.
--

John R. Carroll
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:19:59 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
<snip>

<snip> ===========At best and at most this is true only in the very shortest term.
If the usury laws [e.g. 6% cap] had been in place, the sub-prime, alt-a and NINA [no income, no assets] (aka liar loans) mortgages would never have been created and Bear Stearns would still be with us. This is one of life's ironies, and a plot twist O'Henry would have been proud to use in one of his short stories.
Usury laws protect lenders in exactly the same way speed limits protect the lead-foot driver, i.e. by limiting behavior likely to result in their serious injury or death (whether they like it or not). They also have the beneficial effect of protecting society and innocent bystanders from loss/injury.
"But I want to drink the Kool-Aid" (and I want you to drink it too) is no excuse or rationale.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

George, You and I have been witnesses to the greatest hijacking of all time. I can't think, or find evidence, of one that has ever come to a good end and on that basis I can only say that it's my considered opinion that this one won't either. My conclusion is based in part on my evaluation of the numbers but is more heavily influenced by what I've learned over the years, and as an amateur, in the field of cultural anthropology.
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:42:01 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
<snip>

<snip> =========You appear to be 100% correct.
The world-wide loss/contraction of capital is catastrophic, but the loss of trust, basic to the functioning of not only the global financial system but society/culture in general, is even higher.
While I can calculate the numbers using a spreadsheet program, these have no more internalized meaning to me that the physics of a black hole. The thefts and losses are simply too large to comprehend.
One good thing about this is that the grift blew before the "wise guys" were able to get their hands on the social security trust funds and are having to satisfy themselves with "only" the employees' defined-benefit pensions and 401ks. Social Security may still tank, if the dollar goes, but at least not directly into their pockets.
Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden eggs...
Capital seems to be a world wide problem, even in countries relying on gold rather than promises and paper. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7294665.stm http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relidA219
FWIW -- Russia is moving to a gold ruble http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid 636
Speaking of gold, when was the last time an inventory was taken at Ft. Knox?
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

Please do not move. Stay right where you are. the thought police will be with you momentarily...
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On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:32:10 -0800, "John R. Carroll"

=========Thats not an independent blue ribbon panel of the best available experts for an independent "zero based -- no prior assumptions" study, thats the back-up singers for the current rock star in the White House.
I see far more, far better, far more insightful, and far better documented commentary in AMC and RCM that I have seen from the Council of Economic Advisors. http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/ http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/pubs.html (free downloads and worth every cent) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Economic_Advisers
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

LOL You didn't say independant in your original statement. Does that really exist?
I was just encouraged that goober had actually enlister a competent group and genuinely solicited their advice and then followed their recomendations. I think it's a first for this President. They even called in Bob Reuben!
--

John R. Carroll
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Lucky him Surfcam is way better. If he knows Mcam well it won't take long to come up to speed.
ca
Karl Townsend wrote:

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Cliff wrote:

Maybe 3 generations under 1 roof? As in,oh I dunno,Mexico?
wws
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On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:36:13 -0600, "wstiefer"

==========that was then http://www.calisphere.universityofcalifornia.edu/themed_collections/subtopic4b.html this is now http://www.selectopedia.org/video/business/tent-city-keeps-growing-in-southern-california.html http://features.us.reuters.com/cover/news/D8C99CD0-AF35-11DC-9E67-616F0DA5.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gppx0&pste9789 google on <california "tent city" foreclosed> for 12k hits as of 22 mar 08 =============>>

Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Unka, cut to the real chase. My place has been paid for for 25 years, just who is the city/state going to come after when they lose the never ending up value taxes of the now foreclosed homes?
Yep, bend over me!
Wonder UnKa do the banks pay the city taxes on these foreclosed homes or do they get a free ride?
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Probably a good thing I took the time to answer the actual question posted by the O.P. because no one else seems interested in doing so.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA .
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