What will take oxidation off brass without a lot of elbow grease?



The question is, what is Chlorine gas dissolved in water? Is it ionized, like it would be if you added salt to water. (salt is sodium chloride, so it has chlorine atoms in it) Or, does the dissolved chlorine gas remain in gaseous form, so upon heating the water, it would bubble back out? And what do they do when they add chlorine to drinking water to kill the bacteria at the water purification plant? Do they put some chlorine salt that ionizes in the water, or do they just dissolve chlorine gas in it, so that it dissipates out of the water after some period of time?
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Yes, definitely a solid form.
When gas is used, it is diffused into the water. Much of it does diffuse out over time, which is why you want to let your tap water set before you put your goldfish into it (and yes, boiling does drive it out faster).
Chloramine is what is usually used these days - it is the solid compound. Chloramine leaves the water much slower, which is why you buy chloramine removers from petco these days to do the job for you (probably the term "neutralizers" is more accurate). Less chloramine is used because it remains in the water better at the levels required for disinfectant.
Minimal trumpet content: chloramine is probably less hard on your horns because of the lower concentration. But it probably depends on a lot of things, such as temperature, distance form the plant, etc.) And I would guess that neither is in high enough concentration to do any real harm (or we couldn't drink it)...
Gaseous chlorine has been phased out because of hazards - both accidental and sabotage. It is toxic and flows into low spaces almost like water (it is heavier than air) and dissipates slowly.
It also provides better overall water quality.
A quote:
"New Drinking Water Disinfectant for Mountain View Customers
The San Francisco Public Utilities Commission (SFPUC) will convert its drinking water disinfectant from chlorine to chloramine in February of 2004. The purpose of the conversion is to meet stricter regulations and ensure high quality drinking water for water customers. The conversion will involve most water users in Mountain View.
Disinfectants are used in drinking water to prevent the spread of germs and disease. Chloramine is a chemical compound composed of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramine will lower the level of disinfectant by-products and meet new, and more stringent State and Federal drinking water regulations. Most customers will not notice the change.
Although people and animals can safely drink chloraminated water, water for special uses such as kidney dialysis, pond water for fish and amphibian pets, and water used by some business and industrial customers must have chloramine removed or neutralized.
More information about preparing for the chloramine conversion is available by calling the Mountain View conversion information line at (650) 903-6543."
(I do know a little about many things, just wish I know how to play the trumpet better. Oh yeah, Practice! That's it)
William Graham wrote:

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Chlorine gas forms with Water and makes HCL and O2 - Chlorine reacts with other chemicals present. It takes some pool calcium and makes Ca2Cl or some form. And naturally dissolved gas. It is this gas we smell when we turn on the tap or get a whiff at the pool...
Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
William Graham wrote:

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Here is an article about chlorine and chloramines in tap water......It is directed at tropical fish collectors, but it is interesting, none the less.... http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm
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I remember having a tank of big $ fish and hearing the water company was 'thinking' of changing away from Chlorine - that meant that bottled water was required until they fessed up to what and the general group in town - clubs and stores agreed on the treatment and if one or two types of treatments were needed.
We waited until the lines were flushed enough to start single treatment.
We no longer have fish, but someday maybe.
Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
William Graham wrote:

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William Graham wrote:

The later is the conventional method. Yes it does come back out. That is what you smell when opening the tap. A newer method is using UV (ultraviolet) radiation to kill all the "little bugs". ...lew...
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Chlorine gas is WWI Mustard Gas. Very nasty stuff indeed. Shipping and storing gas is more expensive (hasmat charges) (I get Hasmat on OX!). Theft of a tank can be real problems in the hands of evil people.
Having a Chlorate of some sort - is almost like a bag of fertilizer. Easy to stack and isn't rapid acting as in an attack.
Martin
Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Lew Hartswick wrote:

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Chlorine (an element) is *not* the same as Mustard Gas.
See <http://www.bristol.ac.uk/Depts/Chemistry/MOTM/mustard/mustard.htm .
Joe Gwinn
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Stand corrected - but now the world knows how to make the nasty gas. Yes - not everyone signed the treaty - but will be held to human rights level.
Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Joseph Gwinn wrote:

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They, [municipal utilities] are actually switching more to concentrated liquid CL than powder. Larger utilities, and small ones have either auto fed or hand mixed the powdered Sodium Hypochlorite for years. Accidents with one ton CL gas cylinders cause mass evacuations.<G> Bugs
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wrote:

No - Pink spots on brass are the brass dezincifying to leave copper behind. You have to shift these mechanically with something abrasive, so as to cut through the dezincified layer. This can leave sizable "ulcers" behind. I don't know of any way to replace the zinc chemically.
As it's presumably a trumpet, I'd be very wary of going overboard with abrasives. Better pinkish spots thatn divots. A light job with a fine Garryflex, 3M abrasive pad, or even Brasso is about the limit.
Don't use salt and vinegar. It's a powerful cleaner, but the corrosion problems afterwards aren't worth the trouble,
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Andy Dingley wrote:

Ouch on the abrasive pad. Unless you plan on making a matte finish imitation of one of Dave Monette's instruments. (Great businessman - instead of laborious buffing, just rough everything up with a scotch brite pad and change 10 times as much for the results).
That major reason for taking the instrument for professional chemical cleaning, degreasing, and laquering is not that you can't get your hands on the chemicals, but that it's silly to do so and then have to dispose of total-immersion quanitites for a single use... in the shop it sits there and gets used over and over and over again.
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I got a really cool polish rag from UMI. Not a major fan of UMI but they made a pretty nice chemically treated cloth. I use it on my horn and ANYTHING silver around the house. Works great and it's very easy to use.
Jon Trimble

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on
DIY
Ok, if the red rot is on the leadpipe you might as well replace it.. just the leadpipe that is. Most often you will find the inside is eaten away before the outside. Red rot is caused by your Brass turning back into Copper. Saying that, you can see it can't be polished away. All you are doing is polishing the copper not removing it, most of the time it runs all the way through. Live with it if it isn't leaking yet and put a patch on it if it is. If you are DETERMINED to polish this, try brasso and wash the instrument with alcohol before lacquering. BTW.. get a Ferrees catalogue and they will sell you a really nice clear lacquer, they are on the web.
LLB (horn builder)

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Are you quite sure you want to lacquer it? I know a number of trumpet players who have de-lacquered their horns (the better off ones then silver-plate, but the rest claim that simply getting the lacquer off makes for better sound, while the silver is an appearance thing only).
I looked into having a trombone stripped and plated, and it was about as much as a new trombone...and probably makes less difference than with a trumpet (lower pitches).
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

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I wonder how a large vibratory tumbler with ground corncob & brasso would work. Of course you'd need access to such a machine. Use for deburring parts.
Or,, a muslin wheel & tripoli compound, on the exterior surfaces a big wheel would cover alot of ground , and a dremel in the tight spots.
Tony

on
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wheel
The problem is getting into the little pitted spots. Even a dremel isn't going to do the job. I need something that will do the cleaning chemically.
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Doc wrote:

You can't clean away the little pitted spots because it isn't contamination, but missing zinc that is the problem.
For just general work in close quarters around the braces, you "rag" with cotton tape, or for small detals, flat shoelaces.
A novice trying to buff a trumpet is likely to have it caught by the wheel and flung across the room and smashed... there's just too many things that can snag.
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Yes....The way to prevent this is to use a very low power tool. One tool that I like for this purpose is a draftsman's automatic eraser. These are getting pretty scarce, because most draftsmen today use computers, and no longer draw on paper taped to a drafting board. But if you find one of these things, pick it up, because it can be a very useful tool. It had three "fingers" that wrapped around a long eraser tube that might be 5 or 6 inches long. As the eraser was used up, you could spread the fingers and feed it more eraser. When you turned it on, it spun the eraser around at fairly low RPM, so you could press it against your pencil drawing and erase a part of it. You can make it's fingers grip a pad of cloth, or felt, or steel wool, and use it to polish or burnish, or grind away at something valuable such as jewelry or wood, or a trumpet without worrying about it being flung across the room and destroyed, and yet, it would do the job a lot easier than pure elbow grease......
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William Graham wrote:

I have one of those, and disagree. Ragging (sawing motion with a long strip of cloth) properly performed two handed as a whole body action with the instrument mounted on a good bell stand is going to be a lot more effective than that wimpy little motor. Put it this way - you can generate a fair fraction of a horsepower, but that little eraser motor will stall out by the time you apply any meaningfull buffing pressure. Brass instrument manufacture predates buffing wheels by a few hundred years, and while some cleanup of the unbent bell could be and some times was done with that part on a lathe, ragging is a time honored process.
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