Help Airconditioner Condensor unit Problem

Here's a possible explanation for question 1) The 150 amp main is feeding all the circuits and is carrying X amps prior to the fault. The fault occurs, drawing Y amps from the motor start rated breaker for its circuit. That breaker will delay before tripping. But the X + Y amps exceeds 150 and trips the 150 amp main.

Question 2): yes. Question 3) don't know.

Ed

there is a cold

outside popped;

that the

thinks she

main disconnect

some warmth

me.

heat pump

eminating from it.

Dark smoke is always bad.. most purely electrical burn outs don't smoke. so your guess on an exploded run capacitor is probably close.

If its just that, its a cheap fix. 30 minutes to replace the burnt wire and 50 dollars or so for a new run capacitor if thats what it is.

The only

smaller

Thats IS strange.

failure

A start capacity would only make smoke if it expoded.. then not a lot of smoke.. the run capacitor is oil filled, it would make black smoke if it exploded. Some newer units only use a start capacitor... those are black plastic.

the run capacitors are grey metal with a tin can type look.

a short in the wiring and burnt wiring would make a little black smoke but not a lot.

Condensor unit

Only a dead short across line one and line two would blow the main breaker... and yes it is odd that it wouldnt take out the heat pump circuit breaker first... maybe that one is defective, arc'd across so it wont trip..Id be inclined to replace it on that basis.

so its very possible the compressor is dead shorted *inside, and that caused the run capacitor to explode..its also possible that the short inside the compressor (it has a two quarts of oil in it along with the refrigerant) blew out the insulated wire terminals where they pass through the hermetic compressor housing (the compressor drive motor is sealed in with the compressor and all that oil).

when that happens, and its rare, oil goes all over the place..and would make a black oily mess...and contaminate the inside of the system with burnt oil/ freon and *acid... all that cloggs up the intricate internal refrigerant flow orifices and controls used in heat pumps.

this IS repairable...but is *not practical to do so.... as getting it clean again inside is a real chore... buy an entire new heat pump if thats the case.

The life of a heat pump in florida is 10 years max... 7 years is old... if it has trouble beyond a minor item at 5 years I would recommend replacing the system. ymmv. Ive seen 20 year old heat pumps that were still running just fine..but thats not the rule.

If it is a split system, condensing unit outside, coil inside.. that inside coil is contaminated too... replace both...and the connecting tubing (even if its clean it will have acid in it)

HVAC 'talent' in Florida works predominantly for 15 to 20 bucks an hour...so its a problem you see... look for the best shop you can find, that has high rates and a good reputation and warranty.. and is a dealer for one of the major brands.. Trane is a good brand these days.

Rheem is a better brand. best deal for the money. and has a very good reputation.

Carrier is ... ah... ok.

Lennox is real complex and expensive. Choosing a quality dealer will be your smartest move.. and pay the extra. But not too much... no *more than 700 to 1500 dollars per ton to replace the inside and outside units...thats a wild guess...

...shop around.

Phil Scott HVAC contractor..calif.

Handey

time

he's

snipped

not at all if the current load excedes the setting the breaker trips. I have seen 3000 amp mains trip because of non-existant coordination with the breakers. After all the main is the first breaker feeding the a/c

Not all at all the main will trip phase to phase or phase to ground. breakers for residences are not all that complicated. Most are just thermal and over load.

In the old days before, el cheapo, fuses were place near the unit in the disconnect. Now days the disconnects are not fused. Personally I like the idea of opening some fuses before the main opens. My home circa 1999 does not have fused disconnect.

snipped again

I was quoted $5400.00 to replace a split system in my home this summer. 3 ton Trane, with vfd air handler. My system is in running condition. Replacing the piping to the a/h is necessary in some situations, burn out of the compressor. Have the oil tested to be sure. If burnt replace.

I think it is obvious you have the correct load on your branch circuit breakers ~[supplying your heater] but your total load [from all your On circuits] exceeds the Amperage of your Main or Master Circuit Beaker ~ or on just one of it's legs. (since they are tied together it'll trip both breakers with just one Branch Overloaded ~>

check the individual load on each leg of your 3P/240 Service, (then check which individual load is highest & lowest on each circuit breaker) with everything On as when the trip occured, [Jot Them Down] and see if you can balance the loads between them, (one may be pulling more than the other) switch circuits off one side to the other to obtain a Balanced Load your Main Circuit Breakers can handle in harmony.

use your ammeter & Do the math from your measurements and just transfer enough of the loads around to get it under your Mains seperate Ampacity.

• If they are both maxed out; check your Service to Panel wire sizes and upgrade your Main Circuit Breaker to 200 A if it falls within their Tolerance.It doesn't sound like a big problem to me, Hopefully: just a matter of Balancing your Branch Circuit Loads as close as possible & under your Circuit Breakers Capacity.

Example: let's say you have a draw of 152A on the one leg that tripped and 125A on the other; there is usually a circuit you can interchange off the 152A load with one or two from the 125A load side.....Good Luck

I almost forgot: your heat pump displayed some smoke and that could mean a bad unit that will require seperate attention.

It is possible that an unbalanced overloaded distribution panel was not letting sufficient current to it lowering it's ampacity or draw and it browned out after the first symptomatic trip, thus not causing a trip the second time.

capacitor

the

HVAC.

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breaker trips.

coordination with

If ' the main is the first breaker feeding the a/c'.. the place was wired by an idiot.

the main would feed the buss to which the other breakers attach...

And yes the main could be sized smaller than the SUM of the max loads on the rest of the breakers... Im sure it has happened to...in40 years Ive seen it only once... and *never with a shorted out AC unit..that will take out the AC units dedicated circuit protection, panel breaker below the main, and if fuses are at the unit, depending on fuze sizing and type etc.

of

then

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look.

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are just thermal

you are a layman that has mixed terms.

unit in the

Personally I like the

circa 1999 does

But

to

guess...

this summer. 3

variable frequency drive is a 150 dollar high end additive...not a bad idea either... if it was just the unit and coil, ducts remaining the same, you paid a the high limit in most markets... in some areas though with hashers, paying the high end is smart.

Phil Scott Consulting engineer and Calif licensed Electrical (and mechancial) contractor

situations, burn out of

replace.

branch circuit

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Circuit Beaker ~

it'll trip

Service, (then

circuit breaker)

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more than

obtain a

harmony.

just transfer

seperate Ampacity.

wire sizes and

within their

It was the billowing black smoke from the heat pump thats a huge problem.

That only happens after real bad things have happened.. often unrepairable things.

The 150 amp main blowing, while it could have been due to an imbalanced load in this case, was most likely, by an overwhelming margin due to a ruinous electrical problem in the heat pump compressor/ freon circuit....you get black smoke with electrical exposions with oil present.

not just an unbalanced load.

Phil Scott

possible &

that tripped

interchange

side.....Good Luck

that could mean

panel was not

bzzzzt. An unbalanced supply will lower VOLTAGE to the load.. and with LIGHTING circuits your analysis is

I know this sounds counter intuitive... the reason is that a running motor produces whats called 'imedance' or 'back EMF' by some... a current flow generated by the motor windings that impedes the inrush from the line.

when the voltage drops, the motor slows, creates less back emf and the resistance in the windings remaining the same, amperage draw goes up.

For instance on stalled rotor, most AC compressor motors will draw 4 to 5 times thier rated full load run amperage. (for a second or two if the motor then starts to rotate and come up to speed.)

Phil Scott Elect. contractor.

or draw and it

causing a trip

Phil; This heat pump unit turns out to be a Bryant 697C with an FK4 air handler. It was installed in 1997 and therfore has time left on the 10 year factory "limited" warranty for the compressor.

Assuming that Bryant honors the warranty, what would be involved in cleansing the remainder of the system of contaminated freon and oil? Are there solutions to neutralize the PH of the system?

How is Bryant to deal with for a scroll compressor factory warranty? Any qualifications? Have you seen their warranty in print anywhere? I am second owner.

I should mention that I am on a budget at the moment as other work needs to be done including a roof!

By the way there are two pool pumps which share the 150 A service disconnect breaker via another distribution panel, so during the tripping events, some additional load may have been present to trip that breaker.

Joe Leikhim

Phil Scott wrote:

FK4 air

on the 10

involved in

and oil? Are

Here is the deal... if it burned, and just left the refrigerant contaminated with acid, and the oil only sightly discolored... flushing the system with 'system flush kit' will work just fine... it must be done professionally... many HVAC techs are not familiar with the procedure since its a lot of work that most would just rather skip.

but that would work fine... then with the new compressor be sure to install new heat pump rated 'driers' ..that has to be done by a pro on heat pumps...its tricky fitting them correctly..but its vital.

If the system was just a little dirtier but no sludge, then you would fit a 'suction line filter' just ahead of the compressor (in the case of a heat pump)... that has to be fit by a pro with a clooo...or it will trap oil and become a problem. Mention oil trapping..if the guy understands the issue he will wax eloquent..if he goes...duhhh... you got the ronng guy.

If there is black sludge or a dense black ooze anywhere in the system when the freon lines are cut... junk the system... while ti can be cleaned.. its risky...very very time consuming..with no guarantee.. a new system is a much better idea.

(Bryant is Carrier corps no-name brand... same as a Carrier.. its good equipment).

warranty?

fine..should be no problem.

Any

anywhere? I am

They *may warranty it off of thier records alone, on the serial and model numbers..those will be on the unit name plate.... if that doesnt work, call the local AC wholesalers (yellow pages) until you find the one that sells Bryant.. they should be able to help you.

other work needs

The labor will not be covered.... you might get a free compressor though... labor will be 8 to 10 hours at maybe 80 dollars per hour...more or less depending on location... the clean up kit, freon, driers, suction filters etc could easily run 300 to 500 dollars.... so the job even with a free compressor will be expensive.

For 150 bucks at home depot you can get a chinese window heat pump that will handle a bedroom.. etc. The smallest ones,

Phil Scott

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Thanks for the help Phil; I would like to salvage the system if at all possible. The original owners paid $4500 for the system and it looked to be in fine condition when the house was inspected just a few weeks ago. Just bad luck on my part that it went out 3 days after the closing.

By the way, if the system has to be opened up, I was wondering if there is a way to tandem in a small air handler for the garage alone? This house is laid out such that a wall shaker won't look good for the garage and I don't want house and garage air conditioning to mix. Is such a thing possible? Two air handlers from one compressor?

Phil Scott wrote:

if at all

That included all the ducting though... thats already in, you might be able to get the heat pump system itself repaced for under 3,000 dollars...and that would last.

Repairs in your case will be dicy at the very best...and far from cheap.

and it looked to

weeks ago.

closing.

wondering if there

alone?

No. But you can run an AIR duct from the heat pump into the garage..thats done all the time...in florida though with the humidity and the leaky garage door, the load on the system would be extreme...the house would run warm.

This

for the garage

cant do it without a total hash job... with heat pumps thats a real bad idea. put a wall shaker in low, behind a bush... a split wall mounted coil inside is possible with a unit ouside on the ground. Daikin Kogyo or Mitsubishi... but those are expensive. WW Grainger has a cheaper version...still expensive compared to a chinese wall shaker.

Is such a

Possible but *totally not recommended for your situation.. technical issues related to oil return mostly ...heat pumps are way too complex as they are...splicing in added coil would be like running a washing machine drive off of our mix master...messy.

Phil Scott

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Just a consumer comment - I have no AC expertise: The Mitsubishi split unit is GREAT. We just had one installed last summer, and man, does it ever work well! The price will make you choke, but the performance is like heaven.

Ed

ouside

installed last summer,

choke, but

Yes, no ducts to have air leaks from, no conductance losses either...and you can divert that entire capacity to one room more or less for very fast cool down.

I did the original applications engineering and national marketing seminars etc on those for Daikin Kogyo in 1980... I got a call from a recruiter a week ago he was looking for someone to work for Mitsubishi in a similar capacity but I dont take wage jobs anymore.

I always thought the tube and condensate drain installs were a bit of a pain in the ass, has that been simplified lately?

Phil Scott

I don't know - I have no basis for comparison. FWIW Here's how mine was done: drill a hole (3" diameter, I think) through the wall; run tubing/drain/wiring through it to the inside unit. Outside, everything runs down the wall inside a downspout. The tube runs to the outside unit inside foam insullation. You cut it and flare the end and connect. Wiring runs in Carflex.

What impressed me the most is that this unit just plain does not care what the environment presents. It cools/drys the air to the temp you set - even below 60 degrees. And it never freezes up as the window A/C's sometimes did. Damn thing is so quiet I can't hear if its on, but the LED indicator lets you know. The TV style remote control is a hoot! Who woulda thought you'd ever remote control an A/C with one?

Ed