On-topic: More BS in the Granola State

Calif. Targets Cold War Rocket Pollution .c The Associated Press
RIALTO, Calif. (AP) - Gov. Gray Davis signed into law Monday two bills that
would make it easier to track pollution from a toxic chemical that was used to fuel Cold War-era missiles.
Perchlorate, which has been found in water supplies in at least 22 states, has been linked to thyroid damage, though it is unclear what constitutes a dangerous level of the pollutant.
Davis signed a bill that requires users of perchlorate during the past 53 years to report its use, storage or leaks. The measure also gives water boards the authority to require owners of perchlorate facilities to provide clean drinking water when perchlorate contamination is found.
The governor also signed a bill to establish a statewide database to track contamination. It requires owners of perchlorate facilities within five miles of any public wells contaminated by the chemical to disclose cleanup work.
Perchlorate has forced the shutdown of hundreds of wells in California and it has been found in much of the lower Colorado River - the main water source for 20 million people across the Southwest.
``These bills strengthen protection measures to ensure that our drinking water supplies are safe and healthy,'' said Arthur G. Baggett Jr., chairman of the state Water Resources Control Board.
California is developing a drinking water standard for perchlorate. No such state or federal standards now exist. ---------------------------
Here's an idea for school reform: Before passing high school, each student must "vote" in a mock election based on the current crop of politicians. Any student stupid enough to vote for someone like Gray Davis gets sent back to kindergarten to start over from the beginning.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

Pardon me, but what threshold level are they using to get high enough to shut down a whole water supply? Kosdon bathes in the stuff and he is no wackier than when he started.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

That's just funny!
Ted Novak TRA#5512
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<< Jerry Irvine wrote:

down a whole water supply?>>
Not only that, but what constitutes a "user" of AP? Would that include end-users such as hobbyists, or is it limited to only large-scale industrial users? Knowing the way things work in the PRK, I doubt they bothered to make any distinction in the law.
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(RayDunakin) wrote:

A large part of this kind of problem is that we have gotten so good at instrumentation and detection that you can see this sort of stuff at the part-per-billion and part-per-trillion level if you know what you are looking for. Just to put this into perspective, one person at an Ohio State football game is about 10 parts-per-million. Six to seven people in an elevator is about one part-per-billion of the earth's entire human population. 0.006 of a person (about a pound) is about a part per trillion. There was plenty of other stuff in that water at this level too, most of it unidentified. I've seen GC/MS data for jet fuel where they could only identify about 40% of the constituents - it looks like a forest. But if there was a chlorine or phosphorus compound in there you could spot it at *very* low levels with the right detector. Look at these guy's detection limits at the bottom of the page - some are down to parts per quadrillion:
http://www.trianglelabs.com/FAQ-target_analytes.htm
There is actually *less* "active" ingredient than this in some homeopathic remedies (the supposedly "higher strength" ones), which makes the contaminants much more abundant than the "active" ingredient.
Brad Hitch
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On 30 Sep 2003 10:35:21 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@tda.com (Brad Hitch) wrote:

__________________________________________________ From the EPA:
How Can Perchlorate Affect Human Health? Perchlorate interferes with iodide uptake into the thyroid gland. Because iodide is an essential component of thyroid hormones, perchlorate disrupts how the thyroid functions. In adults, the thyroid helps to regulate metabolism. In children, the thyroid plays a major role in proper development in addition to metabolism. Impairment of thyroid function in expectant mothers may impact the fetus and newborn and result in effects including changes in behavior, delayed development and decreased learning capability. Changes in thyroid hormone levels may also result in thyroid gland tumors. EPAs draft analysis of perchlorate toxicity is that perchlorates disruption of iodide uptake is the key event leading to changes in development or tumor formation. __________________________________________________
If people would just quit bitching about dying from cancer, there wouldn't be any perchlorate problem.
Zooty
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Do they bother anywhere to report what levels are required to have an actual effect as opposed to being "barely detectible".
Some things like lead and mercury and other heavy metals are additive. But most other things are ot and dissipate after exposure has ended (when you return from your shi trip at the Colo River).
And finally ALL the reports I have seen refer specifically to "perchlorate" not "potassium perchlorate" or "ammonium perchlorate" or any other particular perchlorate. The chemical differences are HUGE.
Jerry
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wrote:

Based on the proposed mechanism, this would be cumulative.

Jerry, ever take chemistry? This is covered in most high school classes:
Ammonium and potassium perchlorate are both listed as "soluble" in water. If it's the perchlorate ion that causes the problem, then no, there won't be a significant difference in the biological response.
There are times when the cation can make a difference. There's a cute trick with cyanide, for example. With one cation, it's insoluble in water unless the pH is fairly low. I think it was Isaac Asimov who based a murder mystery on this trick.
Me? I don't take lemon with my tea....
Zooty
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You know how some people intellectually haze over in High School when they discover girls? Well, my advanced placement chemistry teacher ignited a DETONATOR in class. Same effect for me. It was the rocket track ever since.
Narrowcast.
Oh I fogged over with girls too but once narrowcast set in I had a built in prophylactic :)
And no I am very short on BIOLOGICAL impact of chemicals. Just wahat the MSDS says and that is mostly horribilizations.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Agreed. MSDS are on the order of the "use safety glasses" labels on tools such as screwdrivers... like they think I'm going to unscrew myself in the eye or something?
-dave w
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Now that you mention it, yes. :)
Jerry
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wrote:

I always thought the MSDS for sucrose was good for a perspective:
A bad one: http://www.chemed.auburn.edu/msds/sucrose.pdf
A better one: http://www.nationaldiagnostics.com/msds/msdpdf/europe/EC-206.pdf
There is so much variability and CYA in MSDS's that its often difficult to assess the real hazard.
Brad Hitch
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snipped-for-privacy@tda.com (Brad Hitch) wrote in
I don't know what to make of the oral rat LD50: 29730 mg/kg. Half of the rats fed 30 times their body weight of sucrose died. How do you feed anything 30 times its body weight of anything? Did the rats burst?
len.
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Leonard Fehskens wrote:

I think you dropped about three decimal places...
29730 mg = 29 g = .029 kg
but that's still a pretty big fraction of the total body weight.
- Robert
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My bad.
len.
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 18:59:04 GMT, Leonard Fehskens

Hmmm... I think the opposite may've happened Len..

I suspect that based on definition 2, they've may've expanded and then collapsed under their own mass... neutron star-like..
What a mess in the lab that day, I'll bet...
Haven't you ever heard of a "rat-hole"?
<vbg>
Tod "Mind the event horizon please!" Hilty
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You probably drink more than 30 times your body weight in water in a year. It probably involves a timeframe.
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Reminds me of a cartoon I had in my office a LONG time ago:
1) Rats that smoke 20000 marijauna cigarettes a day suffer brain damage.
2) Rats that drink 10000 cans of saccarine sweetenned cola a day develop cancer.
3) Rats that eat 5 tons of swiss cheese a day explode.
The caption I added under neath was:
    "Scientists cause cancer in lab rats"
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Actually, the cancer researchers have probably by now developed special strains of lab rats that automatically get cancer without any special acts to produce it... this is probably a great convenience for the scientists, who can then proceed to study (for example) anti-tumor medication without having to go to the trouble of inducing the rats to develop the tumors in the first place. (I'm not sure what the rats think of it, though...)
-dave w
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Almost...
There was a study a number of years ago where rats were injected with sterile water (pure deionized H2O) and a significant number of them got cancer vs. a control group.
The conclusion was that the act of sticking them with the hypodermic needle caused tumors.
"Injecting rats with lead causes 100% mortality, when the injection is performed with a 9mm pistol."
mj
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