ALOA proves itself clueless.

Well think about this a little. Consider if you will the cylinder in a Schlage A Lock vs. the cylinder in a Schlage F lock. One is machined out of solid bar stock and the other is die cast without second operation. Which one has the greater manufacturing costs, and what do you think the differences are?

I would bet the A lock cylinder costs Schlage several dollars to produce, and the F cylinder costs them pennies.

A few mushroom pins or doesn't really do much to overcome loose design tolerance. Other things however might be effective but those would require a design change. Time will tell if this is required.

Yes, agreed, that distinction seems to fall into the category of "getting what you paid for"!

For basic Schlage A, D and L locks with tighter tolerences, it seems like a proactive gesture to provide some minimal reinforcement...

Also as far as Schlage is concerned, they have been phasing in the Everest Cxxx and Exxx series cylinders as a default option, and could easily call that a practical response to these concerns.

Presuming the above, we might even slide that distinction onto the realm of *any basic low end cylinder* where the manufacturer does offer higher levels of protection with improved cylinder designs.

So at the finish line... a) They did get what they paid for b) Mfgs do offer better, but the option was declined at the POS c) Let the buyer beware, heed the education and awareness of minutia

And also there is the factor of folks that gripe like the dickens at paying for the special keys.

OH YEAH.. I AINT PAYING no blankety blank dollars for them car keys!!!!. the dealer DIDNT TELL ME it was gonna cost XXXX bucks to have a key made.. and so forth..

or, its HOW MUCH to get into my house because I lost the KEYS??????

--Shiva--

I sometimes wish I could tell them, "lack of planning on your part, doesn't necessarily make it an emergency on mine" :-)

LOLOL.. this is SO funny.. I found a 'suction cup' type window sticker that says that VERY THING..

It is hanging in the back window of my work vehicle..

--Shiva--

the shop where I apprenticed back in the 70's, had a plaque on the wall with that on it ... I just think it would piss a potential customer off if I were to advertise it or say it to them :-)

what kind of response, if any, do ya get from your sticker ?

the mechanics get a laugh off of it, and the 'retail' havent paid any attention.. People are so funny..

--Shiva--

hmmm ??? maybe I should reconsider ? kinda always liked that saying :-)

thanks

This is self perpetuating fallacy. Your argument is that the problem is too widespread and too expensive to fix. Why is it so widespread? Because the lock manufacturing and locksmithing indistries covered the flaws up for decades and did nothing to correct them and thus the problem snowballed. Now you want to still do nothing so one billion flawed locks becomes 10 billion.

More security by obscurity. The very fact that people can blab and you can't prevent it proves it doesn't work. It's not how many people know anyway. It's who knows and what their incentive is. Anyone with incentive to break into things will obvioulsy have a desire to know the weaknesses of the locks etc that protect what they want to get into therefore they already know. You can't keep flaws in any publicly sold product a secret at all. All an attacker has to do is buy the product and find it's flaws themselves. It's the people depending on the locks who have no desire to break into anything who are in the dark.

They don't need to. Anyone can buy a PDR and read the drug companies open literature and figure it out for themselevs. If your argument with regard to locks were applied to drugs you are arguing this information should be secret (which would mean that consumers wouldn't know about potential side effects) because somebody might misuse it. A better analogy is an MD prescribing a known dangerous drug without informing the patient of the risks. Of course if drug companies were as careless with their drugs as lock makers are with their locks they would all have been sued into bankruptcy or run out of business by the FDA years ago.

It says that knowledge may well be power but not all power requires or is knowledge hence the reason a congress which often lacks the former can consistently abuse the latter.

ROFLOL How many times are you going to supposedly "plonk" me???? You might as well actually do it because you couldn't muster a logical response to any of my arguments with a gun to your head.

The increase in manufacturing cost would not be great for a few common sense modifications like mushroom/hardened driver pins or even sidebar mechanisms when the production increase that would occur if such changes were made universally is factored in.

The original Bramah lever design is not especially hard to pick, although maybe for somebody without experience at it. This is a good example of the failure of security by obscurity. The lever lock no doubt confounded many would be pickers who thought they were still dealing with a warded lock, but only until they discovered how it worked. The serated lever tumbler came next and is a lot harder to pick. This modification made the design truely secure and there is no need for it to be secret. It could be stamped "serated" on the face of the thing and it won't help you pick it open any easier. Of all the pick resistant modifications that don't incorporate a complete additional mechanism e.g. a sidebar etc, it is probably the hardest to overcome. It also can't be bump keyed yet the industry let it languish in favor of pieces of garbage which a 12 year old can pop open in seconds.

Your Schlage A can be bumped too. Bumping is a worse threat by far than picking because at least picking required some dedicated tools and a little skill. Bumping requires only the tiniest amount of skill and a 'tool' made from a keyblank which in most cases is available almost anywhere. You can't even practically restrict availability of bump keys because any key blank can be turned into one. Yeah people can make their own lock picks too but it requires a little more thought and effort than just filing down a key blank. I bought mine becaue it wasn't worth the effort to make them. I picked locks for years and it is simple to bump open some that I could not pick at all, usually because of restrictive keyway. It's easy to bump a great many that took real effort to pick. Your industry has a real problem with bump keying that it isn't going to be able to ignore.

That's because that's where ethics minded key plagerized it from.

cant be, new federal law passed said basically IF the FDA approves a drug, you CANNOT sue the manufacturer of it for any thing that happens bad.. NO MATTER the side effects..

--Shiva--

Short question Tim:

Are you _the_ Tim Mathews that started the first Dutch lockpick sportgroup NVHS? I must compliment you with your postings on this newsgroup. They are sharp and to the point.

They are about the only reason why I even bother to read this group ...

Keep up the good work!

Greetings,

Barry Wels

Are you _the_ Barry "the key" Wels who did the H2Kx videos ? You are the reason I own about 40 padlocks and all my hacksaw blades are snapped into three pieces awaiting grinding into new tools :-)

Tom

Who says the pin tumbler mechanism is flawed just because it is subject to an attack? I have not seen any representation that the design is not subject to picking by any method.

I am sure that manufacturers and locksmiths would just love to supply all of the new hardware, the users however are going to squirm at the cost.

you need to look again ole clueless one. I will <plonk> you as many times as I need to. I only see your clueless shit when you respond about me to someone else. or when you change your header info. I never remove anyone from my kill-file.

now that's funny :-) cause your arguments are hardly ever "logical".