BETS keyways

I don't know why you are so obsessed with making "bump keys" for Best's SFIC [old] open keyways... You will maybe come across a system that is still using them here and there... The [old] SFIC keyways are often used in retail establishments because they are MUCH cheaper than the new Best restricted cores, and the retail company can source them from more than one supplier... Often times you will find however, that those cores used on retail stores ARE NOT masterkeyed and therefore unless a very poor key bitting was selected you WILL NOT be able to "bump" them...

So right from the word go your little scheme will only be effective on a very small percentage of the SFIC cores that are out there in the realm of locks being used... You have not even considered that you are only focusing only on the one OEM brand of SFIC... There are several out there to choose from:

-- Best [most of the new keyways are factory or dealer restricted only]

-- Medeco KeyMark SFIC [good luck trying to find out how many of those keyways exist]

-- Schlage Everest "B" SFIC keyway family [requires special tools to make keys as they are shoulder-stop SFIC cores rather than tip-stop]

-- Kaba Peaks SFIC [a few "commercial keyways exist, but many are dealer restricted]

-- Arrow [has a few SFIC keyways, bust mostly clones old Best]

There are others that produce SFIC cores that are usually only sold to distributors in the locksmithing industry, as well as many of the OEM hardware manufacturers produce SFICs with [old] Best keyways in order to sell more door hardware to architects and contractors than they would if such people had to purchase the mortise door locks from them and then had to purchase mortise SFIC housings and cores from another company...

Rather than continue to pursue this "quest" for "bump keys" you really should practice and refine your picking skills as they pertain to SFICs... This will help you out in the long run, because you are unlikely to possess a set of "bump keys" comprehensive enough to accomodate every SFIC keyway you will encounter while working out and about in the real world...

Not to mention the FACT [not internet myth or rumor] that you will be wasting an awful lot of time playing with your "bump keys" should you choose to actually produce them and carry them around with you... If you can't pick a SFIC, then just drill it out, because time is money...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Reply to
Evan
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I appreciate that you're looking out for me, Evan.

I brought this up because the BEST keyway system is a little dense to me. I don't find that I'm "obsessed" with it unless a few minutes' time a day is a pathological expenditure. I'm putting together a set of bump keys because I've had excellent luck since I first tried them and feel they would be a good addition to my "plans of attack" when handling lockouts. (I'm a part-time mobile lockout specialist.) I can pick and I can apply various bypasses as the situation allows, but there are circumstances when I'm faced with an overall well-secured entryway when another method of opening (one that works especially well with better cylinders) would be very nice to have. No, you can't have a key for everything, but a well-thought-out set of reasonable size is completely possible and not at all difficult to assemble and carry. Drilling obviously is always an option but I believe very firmly that it should be a last resort, and the NDE debate isn't really one I'm interested in rehashing here.

I'm also unsure why you keep placing scare quotes around the word bumping. If it's out of derision I'd be fascinated to learn why, especially if it's the reason for your general tone.

Since you seem interested, I'm not messing with Medeco -- it is highly unlikely they could be bumped in any case -- and I'm doubtful whether I'll bother with Peaks. (BEST bought out the Peaks keyways, by the way, when the patents on their previously-restricted keyways expired.) It needs nothing particularly special to make bump keys from shoulder-stopped keys -- hell, most keys are, it just means you need to file some material from the shoulder rather than the tip. And Schlage, bless their hearts, has only one section tree for Everest/Primus and one for the open keyways (Everest expired as well, so they're freely available), so a C000 passes them all.

Arrow is almost wholly the same keyways as BEST (they have their own for their conventional cylinders), so no worries there; Falcon only has a couple they generally use.

Non-ICs are their own story.

I don't need and can't reasonably obtain bump keys for every imaginable lock in the world, but I can cover a vast swath with no large amount of trouble, and it would be helpful to me. That okay?

- Brandon

Reply to
Brandon Oto

"Scare quotes", eh ? Well since you brought it up, I looked through my extensive collection of downloaded technical documentation and found an "essay" if you could call it that, similar to good old Matt Blaze's "Rights Amplification Attacks in Master Keyed Locks" paper that was written by two Blaze clones on the topic of bumping...

While I agree that bumping can occur in old, worn, masterkeyed cores, a properly maintained SFIC system would have those cores swapped out as they become old and worn... It is my experience that with SFICs that "bumping" is only possible with keys from within the keying system that are *very* close to the combination that the core you are trying to open is keyed to... [i.e. the key you are using to "bump" the core with is 2 steps lower than the core you are attempting to "bump" and as you withdraw the key all the pins ride up the side of the cuts until they ALL line up at the same time and the core can turn]

"Bumping" is a substitute for learning proper locksmithing technique, it is the equivalent to "script-kiddie hackers" who download and utilize programs that they have no real idea what actually makes the program do what it does... "Bump keys" are basically a similar short-cut for those who do not fully understand how to read locks while picking them...

First off let's add to and correct your incomplete knowledge about SFICs:

(1) Medeco KeyMark SFICs do not use the same technology as Medeco's other cylinders, they are just "multi-broached" "security-leg" SFIC keyways that utilize the standard SFIC A2 bitting system...

(2) Schlage SFIC keyways are of the "B" Restricted Family, which are ONLY applied to the SFIC technology, do not confuse them with the "full-size" cylinders which have several keyway families, the "open" "C" family which you seem to be aware of [and which is protected by a patent until 2014] and the restricted "D" family of keyways which are all "end-user" exclusive... Just because something is "open" and available doesn't mean it isn't still patented, Schlage created that new family of keyways because of the demand for new commercial keying systems and because the old "obverse" family of keyways is so popular that if you have a system on the obverse Schlage "C" keyway odds are good that somewhere, not too far away, someone else has keys that could open your doors...

Back to Schlage's SFIC keyways, even the documentation Schlage produces only acknolwedges the existance of two keyways, the B235 where all keys are originated at the factory, and the B234 where authorized local dealers can cut keys... None of the other keyways are disclosed...

(3) Arrow SFIC, of which it appears you are only aware of their "Base" product line, is available in many non-Best keyways... Arrow's SFICs referred to as the ChoICe product line are available in varying levels of security... You should look into it, there are "Flex", "Plus", and "HS/HSD" levels as well... There are many keyways of which I am sure you were not aware of...

Non-IC cylinders, for the most part, are also not constructed to the same high tolerances as SFICs... As the cylinders age and wear they become more vulnerable to many types of attacks, including bumping... However, it is much more likely that you will be able to bump a Non-IC clyinder due to the excessive amount of slack they have due to the fact that they are not machined to as percise a tolerance as SFICs...

Again, it is sad that you feel that way... Your "bump keys" will only work for you on old, worn, masterkeyed cores... You will not be able to use them on cores that are combinated to one key only unless you are *very* close to the cuts on the combination of that core... The reason why many locksmiths drill out SFICs if they don't pick within a certain time period is for the very reason that the core *could* be combinated to only one operating key and have a very good bitting that is either *very* difficult, if not impossible, to pick... A skilled indivdiual can drill out an SFIC without destroying the pinstacks and be able to decode it so that any other cores can be opened or removed without using the drill...

Just some things you should consider, maybe "food for thought"... Good luck...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Reply to
Evan

Thanks, Evan. I do appreciate the information; I confess that much of this information (I have never worked as a full-service locksmith and my hands-on experience with hardware and keying is mostly limited to personal tinkering) comes exclusively from digging through the available tech specs and manuals provided by the companies in question.

I should clarify that SFICs are not the focus of this little project; they're just the thing I happened to make this post regarding.

As for the question of effectiveness, I should ask whether you've actually tried bumping SFICs. In the interest of full disclosure, I have actually not, but as I said, more than one individual whom I trust fully has related to me that they regularly bump open SFICs (BEST, Arrow, et al.) and I have no reason to disbelieve them. (Also in the interest of full disclosure, a good number of OTHER sources have observed considerable difficulty in doing the same, so I won't swear that it's foolproof. There are some techniques that make it more probable, though, and as I said I've always had good luck with bumping in the past.)

Should I understand you that your hostility toward bump keys is based on the fairly recent wave of public information surrounding them, and a general annoyance toward those who disclose easily-exploited security vulnerabilities? Because that is understandable, though I'm not sure I agree with it (I'm not throwing myself in the other camp, I honestly don't know where I stand on the security-by-obscurity issue), but it's no reason to invalidate the entire technique. Surely you wouldn't come down against, say, an easy and straightforward latch bypass, or an auto opening technique that requires minimal skill. Getting the job done is getting it done, and as long as it's effective and doesn't screw anything up or flush your cat down the toilet, my feelings are not to care too much about the pedigree.

- Brandon

Reply to
Brandon Oto

cores, a properly maintained SFIC system would have those cores swapped out as they become old and worn... >>>>

Yes , maybe .. most often NOT

experience that with SFICs that "bumping" is only possible with keys from within the keying system that are *very* close to the combination that the core you are trying to open is keyed to... [i.e. the key you are using to "bump" the core with is 2 steps lower than the core you are attempting to "bump" and as you withdraw the key all the pins ride up the side of the cuts until they ALL line up at the same time and the core can turn]>>>>>

You need to get some more experience then.. your description of a bump key is way off , and I can assure you from 1st hand experience that bumping SFIC does work VERY effectivly

it is the equivalent to "script-kiddie hackers" who download and utilize programs that they have no real idea what actually makes the program do what it does... "Bump keys" are basically a similar short-cut for those who do not fully understand how to read locks while picking them...>

TOTAL BS , If it works then I use it, I understand very well how locks work , I also understand that standing there picking a lock that may or may not open takes time, and time = $

high tolerances as SFICs... As the cylinders age and wear they become more vulnerable to many types of attacks, including bumping... However, it is much more likely that you will be able to bump a Non-IC clyinder due to the excessive amount of slack they have due to the fact that they are not machined to as percise a tolerance as SFICs...>>>>>>>

Once again TOTAL BS...... if you had the slightest understanding of how bumping works you wouldn't have made that statement or some of the above statments .....

Follow your own advise read the papers "in your extensive collection of tech papers" and at least get an understanding of what you are talking about.

Reply to
Keyman55

A bit strongly worded, but he's right; Evan, you do want to do a bit more research on what bump keys are and how they're used.

Reply to
Joe Kesselman

"Bump Key": A key cut to the deepest depth in each position...

So explain then how a key cut to the deepest depth would have any shot at all of setting a pinstack in a SFIC that is bitted to a shallow depth...

You must only talking about having success in facilities that AREN'T concerned with security... As there are SFIC keyways out there where even the locksmiths that service them can't obtain keyblanks, all keys are cut by the factory...

No it isn't... If you really feel that using "bump keys" is worthy of your time as a locksmith rather than practicing the time honored tradition and skill of picking then you deserve to be replaced by a $6.95/hr technician working for Wal*Mart... Which probably isn't that far off into the future anyway at the rate Wal*Mart is expanding...

Yeah, time = $, and if your customer sees you open a lock with a "bump key" too many times, you won't be called back there for very many service calls, as they will just obtain their own "bump key"...

I mean, since "bump keys" work so well, any idiot or child should be able to make them work, right ???

Umm, no it isn't, the high precision tolerances is one of the reasons why SFICs are more difficult to pick than a standard cylinder keyed exactly the same way... Picking or "bumping" or manipulating a lock that is

*very* old and well worn is about a MILLION times easier than trying the same procedure on a brand new out-of-the-box lock of the same kind...

The "grooves" that wear into a well worn cylinder over time can allow keys that are off by 2 depths operate the lock... That is NOT "BS" that is FACT... Being able to "Bump" or pick a lock that is so worn that it should have been replaced with a new one doesn't mean that the technique works everywhere, and you seem to think that it is...

Try it out on a brand new SFIC right out of the box...

I have, two "essays" on "bumping" and it is a junk technique that is of more value to thieves and curious teenagers than locksmiths... Since it is more about blind dumb luck than any kind of skill... You can't read a lock by "bumping" it...

You have not presented anything in the way of FACTS in rebuttal to my earlier comments... Your opinion is meaningless because for all the world knows you may be one of the chosen few "bumping" wizards with magical powers that few can duplicate...

Try playing the lottery more and maybe you can retire and stop "bumping" locks...

Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

Reply to
Evan

Yes, this is the way it is. I filed some change keys down to bump keys, and it worked immediately. This way to open locks is definetely amazing and horrifying at the same time.

Reply to
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS

The exact same principle a pick gun works on .. It doesn't care what the pin stack is

Who said anything about specific keyways? If a key, cut or blank, can be obtained then a bump key can be made, how that key is obtained was NEVER part of this discussion.

Let me understand this ... your previous posts INSISTED that certain locks cannot be bumped, now you have changed your position to:

They can be bumped, but only by NON Skilled, low paid labor?

MMMM and drilling a lock out requires a high skill level?

That is correct .

I have and found little or no difference. Actually if I had to make a statement I would say a NEW unused core is actually easier than a worn core

MMMM You insisted it couldn't be done at all in previous posts ,and now it is dumb luck....perhaps your "extensive collection of tech manuals " is incomplete or you maybe just don't understand what you read.

Really????? I must have been doing it all wrong all this time .. Please tell me why you can't read a lock simply by bumping vs picking it ?

You have presented No Facts to rebut, only BS opinions that are easily proven incorrect by any "Wal-Mart technician"

(Getting a little hostile here!)

Perhaps... but at least it is backed up by personal experience, not an interpation of what I 'wish' were true.

Well, I can assure you I am not one of the "chosen few".... it is a simple procedure that can be learned by anyone willing to give it a try ( hint hint)

Good advise from a failed a maintenance man. ( and proud of it!)

Reply to
Keyman55

I don't mean to interfere but...

My 7yr old daughter can use them quite easily, after oh...2 minutes of instruction. The theory behind the method is such that the" brand new out-of-the-box lock" is perfect for bumping, whereas the "*very* old and well worn", is much less so.

I think there must be something wrong with your technique. Maybe you're trying too hard?

Dave.

Reply to
Dave

Not on a public forum, I won't.

Like I said, you need to do some serious research. It's a valid technique. It has some serious limitations/inconveniences, just as every other technique has. It's not my first choice, but there are times when it's the right answer.

There are no "junk techniques" in my book -- just people who employ them at times when they're inappropriate.

Reply to
Joe Kesselman

I figure you would need at least 128 bump keys of each keyway 'family' to handle 7 pin IC cylinders, although I concede that fewer may suffice to get a reasonable portion of cylinders open assuming all chambers have a masterkeying spacer (in addition to control key spacers).

Seems rather alot of keys.

Reply to
Peter

Er... 128?

Where'd you get that number -- 2^7?

- Brandon

Reply to
Brandon Oto

more like number of blanks times number of blanks per key way?

--Shiva--

Reply to
--Shiva--

Yes. I cannot comment further or the alt.locksmithing cabal will get me.

Reply to
Peter

Just a bit of info for anyone curious: I contacted Ilco, and they let me know that their FM blank (the A1114FM) will pass the B, C, D, E, F, G and H keyways, but not A, J, K, L, M or any of the double digits.

Apparently they didn't have a clue either; my contact sat around with an engineer, the spec prints, and a bunch of sample cylinders testing it. Nice to know customer service is still out there.

Reply to
Brandon Oto

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