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For a bunch of people who speak of my theoretical speakings you guys are now speaking out of your asses...

"Key" wrote in a message:

" -- can you quote proof of that ? no system is 100% secure.."

Well umm thats where you are wrong... A network that is not connected to the 'outside world' of the internet is VERY SECURE... It is how your bank functions... It is how many government agencies function... Read some books on information security and computer equipment if you need some 'catching up' as you constantly tell me...

"Ed Jasper" wrote in a message:

" -- Have always wondered about a OnStar disgruntled employee unlocking all the cars at once."

Hey Ed... When you call your credit card company does the person on the other end of the phone have the ability to pull up every customer's account information at the same time ??? Umm NO... The same type of experience and knowledge went into the 'enterprise' software and systems design that exists in all of retail...

"Putyourspamhere" wrote in a message:

" -- I'm sure they already have. Some Onstar employees likely have a nice second income."

Oh Really ??? And just how in the world does someone in Atlanta figure out who and where to talk to (remember that phone centers can be ANYWHERE that has phone lines to it) in order to get a given car door opened up... And then there is the small matter of not knowing the info that the customer would usually provide to the call center call taker in order to be serviced... Read what I wrote above to Ed...

"Putyourspamhere" wrote in a message:

" -- So? "separate" networks can be attacked. Additionally what if an onstar employee decides to make a little extra money?"

Umm again -- how does this 'on-star' employee looking for extra cash get in contact with people from god knows where looking to do all of these things that you have suggested ??? Kind of hard to do when you have the dispatchers (or whatever term you want to use) in the call center being monitored for 'quality assurance purposes'... They don't have much privacy and it would be hard to justify accessing client records for clients that have not called them...

I have been figuring out that you guys are MUCH better at locks and stuff that relate to them... Don't loose your grip on the outside world... Common sense is something that doesn't prevail here -- I learned that back during the whole "University Keying Systems Thread"...

Evan the maintenance man

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Your statement could not be more false, indicating that you know as little about computer security as physical. Simply being not connected to the outside world in and of itself is NO measure of a systems security. It can still be VERY vulnerable to attack from the inside. Also banking systems ARE connected to the outside world. How do you think Electronic funds transfers and credit line approvals work??

You think a decent PI can't get the info the customer would provide to the call center? LOL. As to your other statement if I were the PI in question I would gather information on Onstar operations (probably starting in personel where they are underpaid and always willing to make a few bucks) yes I have firsthand knowledge of that from my skip tracing days, a skill which still periodically comes in handy. I would then take that information and decide whom to approch and how based on there level of access, income, etc.

He or she probably wouldn't. Contact would probably be initiated the other way around. Although now that you think mention it if he or she wanted to it would simplify things greatly. Go through the yellow pages for PI's, collection agencies, etc and offer your services. Simple as that. No real need for them to even know your name as long as you can prove your information is good.

Why on earth would you assume that anybody selling confidential informatiuon would do so or have to do so on a monitored line?? How about using an independent number or method of communication for disseminating the information?

Ah yes the thread where you demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the level of complexity in the average master key system and then cried like a spoiled child when your ignorance was pointed out to you.

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message headers

keep his discussions

thats why I do it .

g'day all

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have a nice second

just about anything is possible in this world that we all live in.


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And you didn't say novice you said troll and I said troll in my response so why are you now confused thinking I was talking about novices? Here it is again in case you missed it the first time:

" -- Why would anyone care what a troll thinks??"

Did you get it this time???? Try and keep up. Although I suspect you are just trying to reinvent the argument into something that you might have a chance of winning as you have done previously when confronted.

The point is he did write a book, and a good one, he is a RECOGNIZED expert in his field. As anyone here who has taken his advice and put it to use knows, he knows his stuff. You meanwhile post a great deal about things it's obvious you know only a little about and then become upset when you are confronted with your ignorance.

Your statment reminds me of a quote I'm not sure who originally said it, and if someone knows I'm sure they will give proper credit: When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser.

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a trade

small sample of the

newsgroup seem to be

come across...

sometimes the truth hurts ! some can handle it others can't !

check out the real world sometimes !

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I feel for you if you really believe what you just posted ? again, "no system is 100% secure"

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This AM, Feb 03, Tues, I was listening to the AM radio while eating breakfast. They were re-running a commercial I'd heard a couple times before which featured a lady who had her keys in her coat pocket, they got dropped into a toilet and disappeared.

They promised to send someone out with another set of keys.......

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Or getting PO'd at his girl friend, and sending a copy of her keys to the new boyfriend?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

"I don't know how long you'll last without your space helmet".

"Onstar centere here. We've disabled your igniton for your safety until the police come and arrest the crowd of motorcycle gang members who are smashing your windows and threatening to rape you".

"Yes, Missus Smith, we found your stolen car, it is in the redlight district of your city, and has been parked in the parking lot behind the bordello for the last half hour. Oh, the adress, Missus Smith?"

"What was that, Mr. Jones? You say you want to spit on our ancestors? Why is that? Oh, because you're a car thief, and you really appreciate us sending you a new set of keys to the neighbors car?"

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I told you that you were beginning to wear thin. Your problem sir is that you won't accept the truth if it doesn't fit your preconceptions. I have tried to be pleasant and give you some advice. I no longer think you are worth the trouble.



Reply to
Billy B. Edwards Jr.

I have some professional experiences with computers & computer security. An isolated network is indeed very secure against outside networks - at least against incoming signals. It may, or may not be hardened so that its transmission can't be monitored from outside. (Check "Tempest" specifications.) Also there can be various "taps" placed on it. So that's one potential area of *insecurity*. We're already below 100%.

Then, as others have mentioned, there is the insecurity resulting from human frailty. People on the inside can be tricked and subverted in a multitude of ways. Look up the lessons of the Kevin Mitnick story. He wasn't an engineering whiz - he penetrated by human contact. This type of penetration is a *major* consideration in military/national security. Or, in the case of banks, it can be greed which drives an insider to do something - and they can access an isolated netork just fine.

Finally, there are other isolation factors - e.g. can authorized people come onto the site (perhaps because they work there) and bring onto the site their laptop or PDA and connnect it to that isolated network while they are there, and then take it back home with them when they leave? The answer is "yes" for many business and government "secure installations." Do I have to spell out the security risks?

End result - for perfect 100% security it takes one more qualification than "isolated" - you have to also have it "powered down." :-)

You're probably right - that that specific exploit is probably not possible. How about "a disgruntled employee doing something really nasty"?

That's why there will be a need for "brokers" - the criminal world found that thieves and buyers of hot stuff had trouble making contact. So they invented "fences". Don't you see that an analogous process will fill in the gaps with respect to this - just common sense.

Reply to
Henry E Schaffer

I agree however, on the old GM VATS system when the Electronic Control Module (ECM) is replaced do to damage of the old part there is a jumper wire that is in the ECM that you cut after telling the ECM which resistance value out of the 14 used is in the car.

This allows for one ECM to function as the replacement for all resistance values lowering the cost of production and allowing for parts houses to stock less components. The ECM must recognize the VATS computer system to tell the crank signal to fire the coil and/or the fuel pump relay.

Once the wire is cut the VATS value is set to the VATS resistor in the switch. The car will start with a standard key before the wire is cut.

Reply to
Glen Cooper

Actually I was never a novice, I was an apprentice. This is a proposition where by you rise to a point where you think you know everything only to fall flat on you face with everyone watching. After this happens enough times then you realize the level of your ignorance.

Reply to
Roger Shoaf

Well said Roger. When I quit being stupid then God help me because then I will really be a dumb SOB.

When I know it all then please put a bullet in my head to put me out of my misery.

Why would life be worth living with the thought that when you wake up in the morning there would be nothing to learn?

Please promise to shoot me!!

Reply to
Glen Cooper

As far as I know the original VATS system used a component known as a VATS interogator as an intermediary between the keyswitch and ECM. If you follow the wires from ignition on such an application you will find the VATS interogator burried up under the dash more or less behind the radio or between the radio and the instrument panel (I remember it's hard to get to). The VATS interrogator is what is actually programmed with the pellet resistance value. As I recall it is an open slate until the first time a key is used. After that that keys value is the value which is set. It in turn sends a signal to the ECM (50HZ square wave if I'm not mistaken.) The ecm uses the signal to determine whether to enable the fuel system. As far as I know that is the only ECM direct controlled function. The starter circuit enable relay behind the driver side kick panel is directly energized via the VATS interogator. There are 3 common bypasses all of which require special parts/techniques. 1. Hardwire a resistor of the appropriate value into the keyswitch wiring (requires that you know the correct value). 2. Reprogram/replace the ECM/ firmware and bypass the starter solonoid circuit relay. 3. Purchase or build a module to replicate the interogator to ECM signal and bypass the starter circuit enable relay. There are subtle variations among some of the methods. Some of which allow for only temporarily disabling the system when required, leaving it fully functional at other times. There are a number of legit uses mostly relating to remote start sytems and engine retrofits and swaps. Note that this information as far as I know only applies to the original VATS systems.

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Ain't it the truth.

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I want to make a key for a pin tumbler lock. Anyone knows how to do it or where I can find information about that?

Regards, Carlos

Reply to
Carlos Ojea Castro


I've seen several variations. Some kill the starter, some dont. The Corvette, different altogether. Aftermarket parts different from OEM. The

80's GM cars had all kinds of experiments going on under the hood trying to get the fuel injection right to meet the governments mpg requirements. Ever try to figure out the vacuum lines on one :-)
Reply to
Glen Cooper

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