I have a few questions about master keying IC locks.
A little background. I am the owner of a multi-tenant building. I have installed a master key system using the A2 6 pin system. with a GGMK, GMK (for each tenant), MK (for each suite, some tenants have multiple suites) and probably 2 to 4 change keys per MK. This is perhaps more complex than needed, and I could probably eliminate one level. When a tenant leaves, I retire the MK series. I'm using Arrow cores and a ProLok Blue punch.
I have several common entry doors where I have split the master (and control) pins, For example, I might have a stack for
Suite 1 D 7 C 8 M 2 B 6 Key cut 8 Suite 2 D 7 C 10 M 2 B 4 Key cut
4 Entry D 7 C 8 M 2 M 2 M 4 B 0 Opens for both Key cuts 8 and 4
I have run into a couple of problems. It seems that the lock for the Entry door regularly looses a 2 pin, which causes one or more of the Master keys, Control keys, or Change Keys to fail. Most recently, I was able to extract the core by cutting a series of keys assuming that a 2 pin was missing until I found a key that would extract the core. When I extract the core, and when I removed the pins, I did not find the pin although there seemed to be more metal "dust" than I would have expected.
I also find with the entry doors that it is possible to sometimes extract the key when the plug is not aligned with the shell. This leaves the door un-secure and allows the plug to rotate 360 degrees until it is properly aligned. I'm assuming that this is also related to using the M 2 pins.
My questions:
Why am I losing pins ?
What is the cause or solution to prevent removal of the key when the plug is not aligned with the shell ?
I'm considering changing the pinning with a minimum pin size of 3 and re-keying the building. Before I do this, I want to be sure I set up the TMK and Core keys properly.
Are there any standards for the TMK and Core key cuts. ?
Should the TMK cuts generally be shallow or deep ?
Should the Core key cuts generally be shallow or deep.
Should the Core key cuts be deeper than the TMK cuts, vice-versa or doesn't it matter ?
ok, A2 is a 10 depth keyway. EITHER your termonology is wrong above, OR you are FAR too complex..
WHY A ggmk?
You want at MOST, IMO a GM, (FOR YOUR USE ONLY) and maybe a for each floor, assuming multi floors a master for EACH floor.. EACH tenant gets his own key, but not a MK. if they have multiple suites, they are all keyed to same key. you do NOT need as at present 2-4 change keys per master.. UNLESS, again, IMO, this is a business setting, and there needs to be 'internal to the business' doors that are locked, then that tenant has a master, plus change keys under FOR THAT teneant only..
1 core key for everything,
who developed your present system? you or??
AND..assuming you are correct, and you ARE losing a #2 master wafer, you NEED NEW CORES.. pulling a key out turned, either shows a badly worn ket, OR the wrong blank, AND some very bad pinning development by someone. or all of the above.. I cannot think of any situation that would allow this at all..
unless you have the necessary background in developing such a system, your best bet would be to go somewhere and have them create the pinning system you actually need, and let them repin everything.. plus get some new cores as needed.
I agree that I probably only need GM and not the GGM.
The original pinning came from Master Key Plus program, based on the TMK and the Core key. Those key choices were mine.which is why I'm asking about how to choose those two keys. The reason for the MK's for the tenants is that in several cases, the tenants have separate "divisions" and within the divisions, there may be private offices, so, it was decided to have a MK for the executives.
Yes, I don't understand why or how the pins are getting lost, or perhaps ground to dust, but they are and why I want to go to at least a minimum pin size of 3 (or 4)
this Arrow key fitting PROPERLY? A1179 some letter blank, and NOT a universal plug to go with it? IE the blank and plug fit TIGHT? I cannot think of any way you are losing a 2 master pin UNLESS there is a LOT of slop in the key. or key hole..
I just REdid a complete building, the key they had was a Y4, which is a grandmaster blank, IN a GA plug.. was VERY sloppy.. IF you happened to have a bit of 'parkinsons' then sometimes the lock would open when it should not of.
now, you got the program.. how many tenants? and HOW SECURE does the front door need to be? the second you add pins to the front door lock, so all keys work, your security goes way down in inverse porportion to the number of keys it has to fit.. IF, security is an issue, then go find a locksmith that sells Assa or Medeco, change the OS door cylinder out to THAT.. everyone carries 2 keys..-they can suffer. that front door cyl keyed to one only..and all tenants have one. controls quite quick who can enter the building.
then, go back and figure.. 1 MK, 1 core key, plus how many others.. 10-15, whatever.. you should not have a problem with a 2 cut master wafer tho at all. the program will generate, once you enter what you would like as master.. and do NOT use decending numbers.. IE 2,4,4,5,,7 8 for instance..causes problems. instead, lets say.. look at a calendar..today is 4707 and now its 43 after the hour.. 470743, thats the master key.. assuming you can stand a 0-7 diff in depths. dont do Arrow and the books arent handy.. the program should take that, and generate everything else..
I'll try to expand on where I'm at The system is as I said 6 pin. Part of the pinning for the control key is 7696 bow The matching Top Master is 3496, so at the master level it's not a ski slope As I look though the list of pass keys, I see all of them have deeper cuts in the middle than at either end.
My terminology Cap Spring D - Drive Pin C - Control Pin M - Master Pin B - Bottom Pin
TMK - Top Master Key, in this case, the GGMK Change or Pass Key, the lowest level typically matches only one core pinning
The cores are probably at most 4 years old, so I find it hard to believe that wear is a problem, but it is possible.
The system GGMK - my key GMK - put in to system for tenant executive all access, but I don't think we issued any MK - master key to each suite. There are 8 suites Change Key - typically from 1 to 6 within each suite (Obviously when there is only one key, we don't need the MK, but left it in the system for consistency and possible future changes)
For example, In one office there may be 6 private offices. Each person has a key to their office That Key opens their main door, and the common front doors One or two managers will have a MK to open all of the private offices, their main door and the common front door.
One tenant has 4 suites, so there is a GMK that will open all of their offices, in all of their suites plus the common front door. The suites are different functions so they didn't want the manager from suite A to have access to suite B, etc.
Yes, I'm doing my own pinning. I'm using a somewhat restricted keyway so most if not all tenant keys are made by me.
If I change, I would probably do a system GMK - my key MK - Suite Master (about 8, although I want to have extra so I can switch as tenants change) Change Key - from 1 to 6 per suite
Thes reprensent a typical pin stack for the same pin position in three different locks showing how I splite the C pin and the M pin in the entry door so that the keys for Suite 1 and Suite 2 would open the common entry door.
yeah, bugs me that you CAN lose a pin..its not reasonable..
plus the core key. this sounds better.. as far as number of keys, etc.. a 6 pin will give you a lot of possibilities, far more than you would need here so thats good.. but am still not really happy with front door situation.. everyones key needs to open it which gives no security- would be better to be on a totally separate keyway.
with a GM, core, and 8suite masters* 6 per suite, you are looking at 50 sets of cuts ALONE that need to operate the OS doors.. that takes VERY careful planning of all the cut keys inside, OR forget that, and get one of several better secured locks just for the doors.
I'm not sure what you mean by build up pins and KBA ?
Somewhat restricted is a Best keyway that is not commonly available in the area hardware stores, is stamped do not duplicate and that I try to impress on the tenants that I'll make what ever number of keys they need without charge. That way, they all should have an original key made on the punch.
Unless this is an Arrow "ChoICe" system with one of the nifty "end user" geographically restricted keyways that you have signed a contract with Arrow for, its not impossible for someone to eventually catch on to which keyway it is and purchase keys and cores of their own...
If you rely on the stamped "Do Not Duplicate" and these "uncommon" keyways as your sole means of providing security then you only possess a false sense of security...
Also as a beginning note, you have created a system that is much more complex than what you need... You also extensively rely on unsecure cylinders that are cross-keyed and maison keyed...
FRONT DOOR ISSUE:
4 years worth of lots of keys opening the entry door core of course its worn and you are loosing master pins... In order to keep this door opening in a reliable manner you will need to replace that core with a BRAND new previously unused core pinned the same way at least twice per year... After all every working key (and some old keys) will open this core -- its getting very worn...
I would recommend that you if you must have a keyed entry door that each person authorized to work early/late has to carry an extra key that is NOT part of the master system... This key should not be a "ski-slope" key (declining step key)... It should also be repinned occassionally and the core replaced at least twice a year with a BRAND new one that is right out of the box "new" from the factory... This will solve your issue with having the lock on the front door loose pins once and for all...
To maintain security you would have to rekey this entry door core to a new combination and reissue new keys each time a tenant leaves thus ensuring some level of security for your other tenants...
That is one of the problems that result when you combine a maison keyed cylinder with declining step keys...
You are loosing pins in the doors because of the high frequency of use on the lobby/entry door combined with extensive cross keying and poor bitting choices that are made worse by a lack of proper maintenance...
The common entry door should be keyed to a unique bitting that is not mastered into the rest of the system... This bitting chosen should not be a "ski-slope" or declining step key... This will solve your problem with having pins fall out of the locks as the cores age...
Having the tenants each carry an extra key or two will solve this problem as it will remove many of the extra master pins from your locks -- making them less of a maintenance issue and providing more security by not being as vulnerable to picking as identical locks that are extensively cross-keyed...
You can do that if you want to but it won't solve your problem and it will create some new ones by limiting the number of possible change keys your system can be expanded to...
Let us do some Best A2 SFIC math:
2 Step progression on A2 means --
Even bittings of: 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 & Odd bittings of: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 After you remove one cut from each chamber for the TMK that leaves
4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 4096 Possible Combinations
3 Step progression on A2 means --
Bitting parities of : 0, 3, 6, 9 & 1, 4, 7 This takes a lot of the possible combinations away once you take one from each chamber for the TMK which will leave you with
3 x 2 x 3 x 2 x 3 x 2 = 216 Possible Combinations
I think that you should stick to standard 2 Step progression and just replace the worn cores and learn more about proper SFIC keying system design...
Yes there are... Some general rules of thumb are:
TMK cuts should include at least one of the DEEPEST possible cuts (towards the tip of the key so as not to weaken the blank) as well as one of the SHALLOWEST possible cuts...
This makes it less likely that a change key can ever be cut down to become a TMK...
The Control Key (Core Key) cuts should have sufficient variance so that they do not make easy picking... Consider the bitting choice as if it were a TMK but make it without picking the same cuts in the same chambers... The TMK and the Control key should have reverse parity -- if the TMK has an even cut in chamber #1 than the Control key should have an odd cut in that same chamber...
The way you have chosen these bittings currently does not allow you to fully expand your system as the Control key has a bitting that should belong to a GMK within your keying system...
SEE ABOVE
SEE ABOVE
This doesn't matter as long as they do not share the same bitting in the same chamber you will not have the possibility of interchange...
Yes... Several... Read on...
You don't need to have a GMK for each tenant, that is an unneeded level of complexity with a system as small as the one you have described...
Assuming that you still needed to have an MK for each tenant group you could accomplish this by only having 1 MK for each tenant and make use of "sub-masters" under each MK level if you used at least
3 pin chambers for progression of the change key bitting array (4 x 4 x 4 = 64) this would allow for several suites to be occupied by a tenant and still have at least 4 different sub-master keys for each tenant while still allowing for 16 different unique change keys for each suite under each sub-master...
My questions to you:
1.) How many total doors are there in your building ?
2.) How are utility and service rooms keyed such as -- - Elevator Machine Rooms - Electrical Rooms - HVAC and Mechanical Rooms - Telephone Rooms - Janitor Rooms - Commonly accessible Public Bathrooms - Stairwell Doors/Roof Access/Basement Access
3.) Why do you rely so heavily on cross-keying ?
4.) What kind of keying records do you keep of your bitting system ?
5.) What (if any) key control/issuance records do you keep ?
6.) What method of stamping/marking the keys do you use ?
7.) Have you thought of the possibility of installing an electronic access control system in your building that allows for front door entry as well as entry to each suite's main entry door ?
Using prox cards for such tasks would eliminate the number of keys each tenant is required to have as well as make your building much more secure as lost prox cards can be deleted -- this is very useful for you as you seem to want to plan ahead for tenant turnover and having prox cards would mean that tenants no longer need to have keys to the lobby door...
I am willing to help you design a master system if you want to e-mail me with some more detailed information about your situation...
Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...
Thanks for your information. Although this is not brain surgery, it's obvious I'm made some bad decisions.
As for Shiva's question, I'm using Arrow cores with the Best key ways.
I'm really not relying on the keyway choice for security as I realize that someone can go to a locksmith and have a key made. It was really only chosen to entice the tenants to get the keys from me so that they always are using original keys rather than copies of copies ...
I do understand that the existing system is more complex than needed and that is one reason that I'm looking to change it. However, most of the responses seem to think that it is a bad idea to have the common entry doors as part of the system. So, with that in mind, I'll probably change those doors to another key code and issue second keys. I think from the issues that we have had with those locks not working, it will be a small inconvenience for the tenants to pay for more reliability.
How is using GMK, MK, Sub Master, Change Key different from using GGMK, GMK, MK, Change Key ?
It surprises me that I would need to change the core every 6 months but I'll accept your experience, since I'm having problems. I'm guessing that with the entry doors on a separte key with fewer pins this will be less of an issue also.
Thanks for the math. I have considered that limitation although I didn't sit down and do the calculation.
Please see answers to your specific questions inline below also.
By the way, I'm considering getting a couple of books; Fundamentals of Master Keying and Master Keying by the Numbers.
Terry
About 40 that have keys
Of that 40, about 4-5 are electrical / utility, etc. Of the 40, 7 are common entry doors although only 4 are really used, the others are really more like electrical / utility
Full list of the system, current keys, and previous used keys
You just did. That said stop trying to distract from your own dishonesty and incompetence. Shiva's post is NOTHING like your admission. The difference? He's referring to a pre-existing condition. He doesn't even say if he left it that way and he damn sure doesn't say he left it like that and hopes: "they never find out". Contrast that to your:
You are such an incompetent, dishonest, hack I'm beginning to honestly believe you don't even know what you did wrong and thus can't see the difference between what you wrote and what he wrote. Half-assing things and ripping people off is just the way you have always operated. It's normal for you, and you know no other way. You sure don't have the balls to admit you did anything wrong no matter how obvious it is. You won't even address your own incriminating statement. You run around like a little girl whining troll troll when you are the PROVEN troll and forger. Do I need to post the proof of your trolling and forgery again? There's more too. What I posted was the tip of the iceberg.
Maybe I should buy Chrisyoungslockshopripsyouoff.com and put your posts on it. At least that way any potential customer who googles you knows the screwing they are in for before it's too late.
according to my Ilco book, the Arrow keys are entirely different??? are they the same blank?? Anyone here do Arrow? I certainly dont.. BUT, considering some of the Arrow keyways in the book, I can see how a Best key, might flop a bit and you lose a wafer.. this is PURELY a guess, without actual hands on comparing..??? anyone?
nope, unscrewed the existing system. EVERYONE had a 'master key'.. of sorts..all doors opened with the same key, all 30 of them.. BUT there were a few that had 'extra keys' pinned into them, which they did NOT have the keys for..
1 box of blanks, cut on the proper blank, 4 NEW grade 1 door knobs, 2 HOURS of refitting same to doors., (ever seen a steel door mis drilled?? ) all of these were mis drilled.. 2 3/4 to center? naa.. 2 5/8 or 2 7/8, or how about drilled UP from center of the edge hole? split door? had to weld it back up.. strikes riveted in place? any and all on same door.
You paying attention Chris? He made good money fixing some incompetents screw ups AND the customer got the properly done system that they paid for. Imagine that.
Arrow will sell cores in the "Best Competitive Keyways":
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, K, L, M, Q
In the catalog they simply have a "B" suffix to them... Similar to the way Falcon will sell cores in Best keyways...
Arrow's IC standard keyways are 1C & 1D and they mention "restricted keyways" being available as part of the "ChoICe" (TM) program at various levels...
Evan, ~~ formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...
Careful consideration should be given before control or mastering out of the way doors/locks subject to tampering on the rest of the system. Especially true of padlocks. Somebody drills and steals a core or cuts off a padlock and the whole system is compromised. IMHO padlocks in particular should not be mastered or controled to the rest of the system. Ditto for out of the way vulnerable doors e.g. a door to an outside storage closet, lock on a dumpster, etc. There's risk with any MK system but IMHO mastering cores than can almost certainly be stolen without detection by completely untrusted individuals is an unacceptably high risk. MK of any padlocks is risky.
master key it to something else, just out of the blue.
356615
now we got 2 keys? nope.. the 356 is common..so, lets take the next, EITHER a 2 OR 6 OR 8, if the key allows it, will work,, next is a 1, 4, or 5, NEXT? 1, 5 or 6?
so...instead of 2 keys. we got 9?
thats the weakness of a poor thought MK..
that was why I suggested the OS door SEPARATE totally.
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