Top Scientist To Investigate Thermoelectric Behavior Of Metal Dental Fillings

wrote:


So if the metals were insulated from the outside, there would be no twitching?
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You asked a question!
Congratulations, that's the first step on the way to becoming a scientist.
I feel duty-bound to offer you my best answer - and I'll also forward a copy of Professor Anatychuk's paper entitled "On the discovery of thermoelectricity by Volta" to you by e-mail (It's notable to me that none of the other correspondents in these newsgroups has bothered to ask me for it. I think it's because they're afraid that they'll read something which contradicts their own position, and it's indicative that they are not really scientists.)
If for the moment you could refer to the picture at :
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/frogsleg.htm
I am assuming that you are familiar with the fundamental principle of the thermoelectric effect which is the basis of the function of the common thermocouple (but don't worry if you're not, there's an elementary description of it at http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/thermo2.htm ).
The picture shows rods of copper and iron which are in contact with each other at one end, and their two remote ends are placed in contact with the opposite extremities of a dissected frog's leg.
If we suppose that the ends of the copper and iron rods in contact with the frog's leg are at the same temperature, say 274 kelvin (imagine the frog's leg has been kept in ice), and the point of contact between the two rods is maintained at some higher temperature, say 310 kelvin (imagine it being held in Alessandro Volta's hand), then an electrical potential (voltage) which is purely thermoelectric in origin exists across the frog's leg via its contacts with the remote ends of the two rods.
Part of my question to Professor Anatychuk concerns his assertion that this thermoelectric potential alone is sufficient to cause the convulsions in the frog's leg.
It is sometimes presumed that the effect in question here is the result, either partially or wholly, of an electro-chemical process whereby the tips of the copper and iron rods become involved in an electrolytic reaction, with some fluid constituent of the frog's leg acting as the electrolyte.
But in his paper (the one that I am sending to you), Professor Anatychuk appears to assert that this is not the case, and that the effect is primarily, if not totally, a thermoelectric one (i.e. one in which any electrolytic effect is insignificant).
Clearly the muscular convulsions observed must involve the action of bio-electrical/bio-chemical processes in the leg itself. But in the presence of a sufficiently large thermoelectric potential, it may be the case that it is not necessary for there to be any additional contribution from any electrolytic reaction at all in order for the effect to be produced.
I think that it may be possible to carry out further investigations to determine whether or not this is true. Firstly, it should be possible to repeat the experiment with the tips of the copper and iron rods coated with an electrically conductive substance which is known not to corrode, such as gold or iridium. If, under otherwise equivalent conditions, the muscular convulsions continue to occur then this would indicate that the process by which the rods generate the applied electrical current is thermoelectric and not electrolytic. And secondly, it should also be possible to detect the products of any electrolytic action, if they occur, in the original form of the experiment.
As for your own question, I think that if the tips of the copper and iron rods where covered in an insulating material then it would not be possible for them to drive any current through the frog's leg at all, either from thermoelectric or electrolytic action. However, as far as I know it might be possible to produce some neurological response from a newly dissected frog's leg simply by the mechanical action of prodding it in the right places with the insulated tips of the rods. But without the benefit of any direct experimental observation I would not be able to confirm that this action would produce convulsions either as pronounced or as sustained as those induced by the application of an electrical potential.
Profesor Anatychuk also claims in his paper that the conditions of Volta's experiments have recently been reproduced in the laboratory by one of his colleagues, and that the results support his arguments. However, the reconstruction of the experiment was carried out using a length of an electrically conductive material to represent the frog's leg, and real frog's legs were not used at all.
Do you think that this difference might have had any bearing on either the significance or validity of the results of the "reconstructed" experiment?
Keith P Walsh
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wrote:

I feel dja vu; did you already post his paper as a URL here?

Copper and iron wires as he'd already seen copper or iron didn't work.

Hardly--the paper's top sections, which I didn't need to read, says one side is heated in the Seebeck effect. Either the copper or iron, but not both, makes a flow of charges, where their voltage would be greater than if they were at room temperature.

Volta's experiment disposes iron wires alone, with twitching observed; but raw iron is easily subject to corrosion in wet--especially briney-- media, due to its manganese and sulfur content. We don't know their purity. So "iron" wires alone could make a junction with themselves. After the rusting subsides, Volta would see the twitching at room temperature die off. His other experiment with boiling-hot glasses of watter will raise the conductivity of free ins in the frog, as well as speed up the rusting, which is a more likely explanation than thermohomoielctroforesis.

too weak

Retard, I already told you "whether or not" = "whether or not whether".

Okay.
"In 2003, at Thermoelectric Department of Chernivtsi National University, Kushnir R.I. who made her diploma paper "Research on the Discovery of Thermoelectricity by Volta [10] based on the above descriptions by Volta reproduced his experiments for the observation of thermoelectromotive forces (Fig. 4). The experiments reproduced to the maximum the conditions described by Volta. Naturally, instead of a frog, a highsensitive digital voltmeter with resolution 10-7V was used. Thermoelectromotive forces with characteristics that coincided with the descriptions by Volta were observed."
Lacks detail, but it sounds lik she would also use raw iron.
"Thus, a combination of the foregoing facts gives sufficient grounds to recognize that the history of thermoelectricity dates back to experiments carried out by Volta.
The present paper was reported to XI International Forum on Thermoelectricity that gave grounds to the International Thermoelectric Academy to recommend to world thermoelectric community to recognize Italian scientist Volta as the discoverer of thermoelectric effect of EMF generation under the influence of temperature difference, as well as to apply to government of Italy with a proposal to immortalize Volta as the pioneer in thermoelectricity by installing the memorial plaque in his homeland."
No, the experiment could be isothermic and it would still work.
-Aut
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I posted the URL of the contents listing of the Journal of Thermoelectricity No.2 for 2004, which only gives a reference to the paper. There isn't any URL for the paper itself, that's why I sent you a copy. I think you're the first of my correspondents here who has read any of it. I feel that at last we're getting somewhere.

Whilst I understand that Professor Anatychuk describes an experiment where a rod of only a single metallic composition is used (more on that below), most descriptions of the frog's leg experiment depict the arrangement of two wires of dissimilar metals in contact with each other as causing the observed effect, as at:
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/frogsleg.htm
A feature of the "two dissimilar metal rods" arrangement (which Anatychuk has not described in his paper) is that its behavior can be understood in terms of the operation of the common thermocouple. If you imagine that the frog's leg is not there, and the two remote (shown as pointed) ends of the two wires are bent around so that they also come into contact to form a bi-metallic loop, then what you have is a copper-iron thermocouple. Under isothermal conditions (and ignoring any extraneous effects, such as faradaic ones) no electrical current flows in this loop. However, if the two contact points at either "end" of the thermocouple are maintained at different temperatures then an electrical current flows around the loop. This fact is useful in the application of temperature measurement because if one "end" is maintained at a constant temperature then, after an accurate calibration of the device has been established, variations in the temperature at the other "end" can be gauged by measurement of the corresponding variation of the current flowing in the loop.
Open up one end of the loop and put the frog's leg back in again, and all we need in order to establish a thermoelectric potental across the frog's leg is a difference in temperature between the remaining point of contact between thw two rods, and the two remote ends which are in contact with the opposite extremiteis of the frog's leg.
And, according to the established principles of scientific understanding, whether or not this thermoelectric potential is large enough on its own to cause the convulsions observed in the frog's leg can only be determined by experimental investigation. (And that is not withstanding the fact that in his paper Professor Anatychuk has described an experiment which involves the behavior of a different type of thermoelectric device.)

The experiment described by Anatychuk (and attributed to Volta) in the paper uses only a single iron wire. (As I have already indicated, there are other sources which also attribute to Volta the experiments utilising the arrangement of the two contacting wires.) In the case of a single wire, a thermoelectric potential is established between its opposite ends if they are maintained at different temperatures. However, if the two ends of the single wire are bent around to form a loop, then no sustained thermoelectric current can be caused to flow around the loop by the application of a static temperature differential in it (i.e. unlike in the case of the two-wire loop).
According to Professor Anatychuk, Volta's description of the experiment with the iron "arc" demonstrates conclusively that convulsions in the frog's leg are the result of thermoelectric phenomena.

Do you think that you would be able to confirm your assertion that this effect is too weak by carrying out experimental procedures?

I choose to use the term "whether or not" because I think that it is useful in implying to the reader that the result of an experimental procedure can settle an argument by establishing a disputed fact conclusively either one way or the other. I'm sorry if you find it irritating, but you really shouldn't be so pedantic. It isn't wrong. Language isn't like science - it's constructs are not determined by nature, they can be changed by the writer according to context, style, fashion or even just plain preference. The only important thing is that the the intended meaning is conveyed to the reader. Using the term "whether or not" may be regarded strictly in linguistic terms as being tautological. But that doesn't make it an error per se. Even in our context of scientific argument, my use of it does not introduce any kind of scientific inaccuracy or ambiguity (I'd be very careful never to do that.) So if you are going to continue in this debate I think that you would sound less puerile if you didn't rely so heavily on linguistic pedantry to bolster your position by attempting to denigrate mine in such a juvenile manner. An expert in psychology might suggest that such a tactic indicates a lack of confidence on your part in your own scientific argument.

Agreement! I told you we were getting somewhere. I'd be interested to hear the results of these experiments. We would find out then if there really is any "corrosion" involved.

You realise you're going up against the President of the International Thermoelectric Academy here, and not just me?
Why should anyone believe that you know more about it than he does?
Keith P Walsh
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wrote: [wipe dialoghohreia]

either tip

by what?

or by lookup tables of potentials, cellular and muscular

by what?

The wire was in both glasses, both hot. What has it to do with your above claim?

If I had the time. Why don't you, with a chicken wing or a leaf and iron and copper wires? Maybe you can guess why Volta's experiment could work with iron and not copper.

its, shitwit And yes, it is wrong. The not goes in the predicate, not in the determiner.

It's not tatologhic at all as it's self-contradictory. It's equivalent with "If I don't say so myself."

Kids are not pedants--another one of your malapropisms--the paidoghogh is the pedant, which you'v been consistently here. My asides do not bear on my scientific reckennings; they aren't even in the same block of text. So you are deluded.

I don't see "chemical" in there.
-Aut
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or a worm for a chicken wing
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Keith P Walsh wrote, On 3/19/2009 10:41 AM:

The second step toward becoming a scientist is to form a hypothesis. The third step is to test the hypothesis.
Sadly, Keith P Walsh will never become a scientist...
--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)
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I stated my hypothesis in sci.med.dentistry as long ago as December 2003 (see message 166 in thread "ADA Statement on Dental Amalgam", 29 Dec 2003). It went like this:
"The electrical potentials generated by amalgam fillings dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads and, in so doing, make people unhappy."
And so far my hypothesis remains consistent with all known scientific evidence.
To this basic general hypothesis I have since added the following:
"And in extreme though not uncommon circumstances they (the electrical potentials generated by amalgam fillings) are able to cause permanent neurological injury which cannot be repaired simply by the removal of the fillings."
This addition is also currently consistent with all known scientific evidence.
Ever since metal amalgams were first used in restorative dentistry almost two hundred years ago, the behavior of increasing numbers of dentists' patients has been the test of both parts of this hypothesis.
If you think that either of them has been disproven then I would suggest that you take a closer look around you. (Remember for example that most sufferers of chronic "tinnitus" do not appear to accept that their condition was caused by listening to loud rock music.)
Here's how a scientist thinks O lad - I've noticed that the Swedish government is about to introduce a ban on all uses of mercury in Sweden. This ban is not specific to but will include the use of all dental amalgams containing mercury. I would suggest that under these circumstances the Swedish government will be in a unique position to put my hypothesis to a new kind of test. That is, with appropriate monitoring procedures in place, the Swedes will be able to gauge whether or not the sudden and total cessation of all uses of mercury- containing fillings in dental surgeries throughout Sweden has any noticeable effect on the general well-being of the Swedish population at large. (As a matter of fact I already pointed this out in the thread "Anti-Amalgam Countries Under Scrutiny", 9 Oct 2008.)
And I think that even someone as limited in perception as yourself will recognise that I would not be able to carry out such a test on my own.
It would require the cooperation of the Swedish government.
Here's some further scientific assessment of the situation for you that you might not have been able to recognising for yourself - suppose that the results of such tests were overwhelmingly in support of my hypotheses, would that necessarily prove them right? Well a scientist would recognise that the relationship of cause and effect between the banning of the amalgams and any reduction in the cases of neurological disorders would still need to be explained - otherwise the incumbent political leadership in Sweden could just as easily claim that the reason for the marked improvement of the sense of well- being of the population at large was simply due to their own enlightened stewardship of the country, and nothing at all to do with the fact that its citizens were no longer having electric batteries (sorry - I should say "amalgam fillings") placed in their teeth.
Well, such misinterpretations of events might be avoided if further scientific investigations were carried out to determine whether or not it is possible to detect any difference between neurological function in the vicinity of teeth with amalgam fillings and neurological function in the vicinity of teeth without.
I think that it is unfortunate for budding scientists that the instrumentation required to do this is very expensive and cannot be bought for less than 100 dollars at Radio Shack.
Keith P Walsh
PS, the "Anti-Amalgam Countries Under Scrutiny" thread suggested that the Swedish government might set up monitoring procedures to try and answer the following questions after its mercury ban takes effect -
1) In general, are our citizens happier and more contented? 2) Has there been any reduction in our suicide rate? 3) Has there been any reduction in the diagnosis of cases of clinical depression? 4) Has there been any reduction in the diagnosis of cases of tinnitus (ringing in the ears)? 5) Has there been any reduction in the diagnosis of cases of chronic headache? 6) Has there been any decline in the type of behaviour sometimes referred to as "teenage angst"? 7) Have discipline and/or achievement in schools improved? 8) Have there been any reductions in crime rates? 9) Has there been any reduction in the rate of alcoholism? 10) Are our dental surgeons happier in their work?
My only worry would be that someone in Sweden might suggest it a good idea to use amalgams made with other metals, such as gallium, which would have no mercury in them but would still be likely to display a similar electrical behavior.
(Remember that it is not necessary for metals to become involved in an electrolytic reaction in order for them to generate electrical potentials.)
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wrote:

I have never listened to loud rock music. Rolls Royce Pegasus engines, yes, but loud rock music, never.
http://www.wingweb.co.uk/wingweb/img/450-Rolls_Royce_Pegasus_cutaway.jpg
My hypothesis is bright green flying elephants lay their eggs in black holes. And so far my hypothesis remains consistent with all known scientific evidence. If you think that has been disproven then I would suggest that you take a closer look around you. (Remember for example that some wanker claims dental amalgams make people unhappy.)
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What's your point here?
Do you suffer from chronic tinnitus yourself?

Are you trying to suggest that my hypothesis is as fanciful as yours?
It isn't.
The other difference is that there are scientific tests that could easily be implemented (although not by myself acting alone) which would offer some degree of evidence as to whether or not my hypothesis is correct, but which those who advocate the use of amalgams in dentistry (and who would be in a position to conduct such tests) have never bothered to carry out.
The tone of your message gives the impression that you are not a happy person.
Do you have any amalgam fillings in your teeth?
Keith P Walsh
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Did you ever have any amalgam fillings in your teeth?
Because if you did then the fact that you still suffer from tinnitus now doesn't prove that the condition wasn't caused by the dissipation of electrical energy from the fillings when they were in.
It appears that chronic tinnitus is the result of permanent damage to the nerves in the inner ear.
It would be unreasonable to expect that such damage might be repaired simply by the removal of fillings.
I am sorry to hear about your daughter.
However, the fact that there are other things in life which make people unhappy does not prove that having metal amalgam fillings in your teeth is not one of them.
Did you ever have any amalgam fillings in your teeth?
Keith P Walsh
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Keith P Walsh wrote:

So, you made a wild unsupported conjecture.

But you have no evidence.

Since you cannot support your first conjecture, you add another unsupported conjecture.

That is right, there is zero evidence for this one either.

Heresay is not evidence.

This is not a scientific argument.

Well, go offer them some money to do the study. You seem quite generous with others people's money, spend some of your own.

If you are unwilling to spend the minor sum of $100 but instead spend years here spewing nonsense, then you cannot be serious about wanting the truth and are only here to whine.

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No, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.
You've done nothing but whine about the subject on these newsgroups for years.
You've refused to do any of the experiments you whine must be done even though the experiments are simple and people have offered to help you obtain the equipment free to you.
After all those years it is obvious you have no interest in anything other than reposting your drivel over and over.
--
Jim Pennino

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snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What this exposes is Keith's ignorance or stupidity. He wants to get a certain answer but is afraid to see what the real answer is since it does not agree with his prejudice. He does not want the experiment done.

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You are mistaken.
And you have failed to recognise the whole point of this thread.
Professor L I Anatychuk of the Institute of Thermoelectricity in the Ukraine has accepted my question regarding the thermoelectric behavior of metallic dental fillings.
And he has undertaken to provide an answer when he is in a position to do so.
Here again is the exchange of Skype messages which established this position at the XIII International Forum on Thermoelectricity in February this year:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ hello! type your message here [12/02/2009 12:08:10] Keith P Walsh says: Are metallic dental restorations which consist of dissimilar metals in contact with each other able to generate thermoelectric potentials? [12/02/2009 12:08:54] Keith P Walsh says: And are these potentials large enough to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads. [12/02/2009 12:10:58] Keith P Walsh says: Remember that dentists sometimes screw a metal alloy retaining pin into the root socket of a patient's tooth and encase the head of the pin in metal amalgam. And dental restorations are subjected to thermal gradients all the time. [12/02/2009 12:11:28] XIII Forum of Thermoelectricity says: who do you want to address the question? [12/02/2009 12:11:44] Keith P Walsh says: Professor Anatychuk [12/02/2009 12:16:58] Keith P Walsh says: Volta's frog's leg experiment - for two dissimilar conductors in contact with the frog's leg - how big does the temperature differential have to be to make the frog's leg jump? how many degree K - to Prof. Anatychuk [12/02/2009 12:17:05] XIII Forum of Thermoelectricity says: Introduce yourself, please. Your question is accepted. Professor will answer, when will be in a position. [12/02/2009 12:18:56] Keith P Walsh says: My name is Keith Walsh, I am in the UK. I have read that metal dental fillings generate electrical potentials up to 350 milliviolts - is this a thermoelectric potential? [12/02/2009 12:19:41] Keith P Walsh says: my e-mail address is snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Professor Anatychuk is a world authority on the thermoelectric properties of materials.
He is the author of the book "Physics of Thermoelectricity" (ISBN 966-738-00-1). See:
http://ite.cv.ukrtel.net/book/index.html
I think that we should all be interested to hear what Professor Anatychuk has to say about the thermoelectric behavior of metal dental fillings.
Mind you, I'm not sure how he is going to come up with his answers. He can't consult any existing scientific literature because none exists.
As far as I can see the only way he is going to be able to come up with any scientifically valid answers to my questions is to carry out some experimental investigations of his own.
And I for one would be very keen to hear his results.
Keith P Walsh
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Keith P Walsh wrote:

If you wanted the result, you would do the experiment or pay someone else to do it. You have done nothing, therefore you do not want the result.

The purpose was to demonstrate, yet again, your paranoia and whining.

So you are too lazy to do anything and want a servant.

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The point of this thread and all the others you have started over the years is to whine about your obsession.
<snip>

If you truely wanted answers, you would have done the experiments yourself years ago as none of them would require any equipment that can't be found either at Radio Shack or E-bay for next to nothing.

Yeah, sure you will.
--
Jim Pennino

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On 18 Mar, 17:30, snipped-for-privacy@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

I've explained to you before, the type of readings that can be taken with a common multimeter bought from Radio Shack have already been demonstrated.
You can measure electrical potentials with magnitudes of hundreds of millivolts in amalgam fillings using such an instrument, and these potentials appear to be present even when the amalgams are not in contact with any saliva.
The best example I can give of such measurements are the ones taken by Dr Jack Levenson, the now deceased pioneer of mercury-free dentistry in the UK, which were recorded in London in 1992, and can be seen at:
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/potentials.htm
However, it is NOT possible to determine the extent to which these potentials are able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads using your Radio Shack instrument.
It isn't sensitive enough.
Nevertheless in recent years instruments have been developed which would be sensitive enough to determine whether or not neurological function in the vicinity of teeth with amalgam fillings is significantly different from neurological function in the vicinity of teeth without amalgam fillings.
But these instruments are not cheap.
And they do not sell them in Radio Shack.
Why can't you understand this?
Can't you see that it isn't me who's failing to recognise the truth?
It's you.
Keith P Walsh
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The first multimeter on the Radio Shack website I clicked on would read 100 microvolts and cost $29.95.
A quick web search more microvoltmeter found several meters in the $100 range that would measure down to 1 microvolt.
You are still just whining.
<snip remaining whining>
--
Jim Pennino

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wrote:

Even a used 'scope ... http://whorlskyelectronics.ecrater.com/product.php?pid !98941 ... and you could always put an op-amp in front of it. He's just whining.
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