Amazing Chinese forging video

On 12/29/2016 6:18 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

...

...
:)
Indeed, the early ingenuity and diligence tend to amaze us as we're so used to everything being manipulated by other than what to us now seems "brute force"...
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On 12/29/2016 8:38 AM, dpb wrote: ...

Actually, on further thought, perhaps that would've been easier than the installation??? :)
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Notice when they're doing the 2nd and 3rd round of forging the flange. When the hammer strikes, it brings (what passes for) the set hammer -- the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never goes too far and crushes the lip.
We never see the hammer driver but I'd say he's hot stuff, lots of practice. Note that it's apparently a drop hammer, no powered stroke. The hammer driver has to raise the tup just enough, reckoning on the remaining heat at any stage, to get the blow just right.
Cool stuff, great teamwork.

Is there any reason to believe that the workpiece isn't just mild -- low carbon -- steel? No special hear treating required if it's not burned for forged too cold. I have a piece of oil rig pipe here that is, I think, supposed to be good to 6,000 PSI, seems to be made of kinda weird steel. 100 PSI is small potatoes.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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That's sort of my point there. What if anything is being controlled in that operation? The forging looks hot in some parts of the video and cool on others. Didn't see any tempstick action, but it is an edited video.
Skill of the team aside, it's still a real corny looking operation.
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On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:13:12 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:

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If you saw the way they open-die-forged tool steel ingots (some 15 feet lon g and 2 feet in diameter) as recently as the '70s, you wouldn't see much di fference. They keep hammering that ingot until it won't hammer anymore. No templesticks, no temperature gaging at all. They just look at the color of the slag as it peels off.
I saw one of those in Chicago around 1977. The dynamics were the same, but the rotation of the work was automated.
--
Ed Huntress

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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

So in other words, the video shown is at least 40 years behind the times.
Was the place you saw surrounded by muddy ruts, like in the video?
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On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote:

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--
> >> > the block of steel on a long stick -- down flush with the lip, never
> >> > goes too far and crushes the lip.
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writes:

That's the state of large open-die forging operations all over the world. The only advance is in robotic, or otherwise automated, work rotation and positioning.

It was in downtown Chicago -- somewhere on the south side. I forget the company name but it was a major supplier of tool steels. The ingot I described was, IIRC, D2 steel.
As for mud huts -- not quite, but you wouldn't want to live there.
--
Ed Huntress

Probably Anderson-Shumaker. They're still down there.
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On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:33:56 AM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:

Yes! Actually, my fading memory ran the two of them together. I've been to both mills, but the forging of that big tool steel ingot was at Finkl.
--
Ed Huntress

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writes:

Finkl closed up their northside plant and moved to the southside. The whole site has been bulldozed flat and sold to a developer.
Back in the late 80's, they turned the area into a "Planned Manufacturing District" to protect it from residential encroachment, but no sooner did they do that, than they started cutting out chunks for retail shopping centers.
For nearly thirty years they have been chomping at the bit to slap housing on that area, looks like they'll finally get their wish.
Paul K. Dickman
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WGN news had a report about finkl, seems thier south side neighbors don't like them. The people near the plant are bitching about noise, smells, vibration and broken promises.
Best Regards Tom.
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On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 1:59:24 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:

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Huh. I don't remember the area. I was there on a 4-day press junket put on by the American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI), and they bused us all arou nd Illinois and Indiana, from the coal mines in the south to the big primar y steel mills on the Lake Michigan shore.
The forging operation at Finkl was impressive as hell. I was writing about remelting for making the highest-quality steel at the time (electroslag and vacuum-arc remelting), so that's where I spent most of my time. But the bi g forging operation was a real eye-catcher.
The other eye-catcher was quenching a heat of coke. Did you ever see that d one? It blackened the sky for miles. Not long after, doing it without filte rs was outlawed in the US and most of Europe. People who live downwind of t hose operations in China and India die at an early age.
--
Ed Huntress

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writes:

Huh. I don't remember the area. I was there on a 4-day press junket put on by the American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI), and they bused us all around Illinois and Indiana, from the coal mines in the south to the big primary steel mills on the Lake Michigan shore.
The forging operation at Finkl was impressive as hell. I was writing about remelting for making the highest-quality steel at the time (electroslag and vacuum-arc remelting), so that's where I spent most of my time. But the big forging operation was a real eye-catcher.
The other eye-catcher was quenching a heat of coke. Did you ever see that done? It blackened the sky for miles. Not long after, doing it without filters was outlawed in the US and most of Europe. People who live downwind of those operations in China and India die at an early age.
--
Ed Huntress

If you were there in the 70's, it was still pretty much a wasteland.
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On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:02:34 PM UTC-5, Paul K. Dickman wrote:

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Yeah, everything about primary steel mills is gobsmacking. It reminds me of the feeling I got, as a lifelong Easterner/Midwesterner, seeing the Arizon a desert for the first time. The scale of everything was beyond my imaginat ion and it actually was disorienting. My sense of distance and depth percep tion all but disappeared.
Watching them pour a heat of steel was similar. I'd watch it, and then see some puny human walk into the field of view, and it was like being in a lan d of giants. This was before continuous casting had taken off in the US.
As for quenching coke, you'd see this large steel building out by itself. F rom a half-mile away you could see the heat rising, but there wasn't much e lse to give you a sense of scale. Then the water would come in on a huge ga ntry; they pour it in the top of the coking oven, and solid-looking black s moke poured out, straight up. IIRC, the dimensions of the column were somet hing like 100 feet square or more.
Then the black smoke would get picked up by the wind and blown east. The to p of the column bent over like the top of a thunderhead cloud.
--
Ed Huntress

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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com writes:

Saw that done at Sydney, Nova Scotia, early 70s. Whole flaming rail car drenched, spectaular at night. A few years later, the mill closed and the "tar ponds" that collected the runoff became the province's biggest environmental nightmare.

AIUI, the health/mortality consequences of decades of coking in Sydney are still being litigated here.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:50:21 PM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:

I find it strange that the health consequences of breathing carbon particul ates, which was recognized and a major issue back in the years of political activism for clean air, decades ago, had fallen off the radar again until fairly recently.
When I was a medical editor I saw frequent reports from Europe that identif ied the health risks presented by diesel automobiles. I remember one study that concluded that 11,000 people per year die prematurely in Europe from t hat cause alone.
In the meantime, the US had tighter particulate limits on diesel cars than Europe did, which is the main reason we still don't have many diesel cars i n the US. But we haven't made a big deal about it, otherwise. Stack scrubbe rs and other filters helped a lot with power plants and other big coal burn ers, but the push for diesel cars kept moving forward. The thought was that we could reduce the output to a "safe" level with advancing technology.
Now, it's widely recognized that diesels are killers, even with filtration. It appears that even small additions to the carbon particulates in the atm osphere results in more people dying. There apparently is no "safe" limit.
I think that diesels are about done in the US. And you and I probably are a mong the last generation to watch a major-scale open quenching of coke.
I hope that you're able to reach a clear conclusion about the health effect s people have suffered up there.
--
Ed Huntress

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I hope we don't find out in 30 years that this is a poison hole that pollute the ground with chemicals and heavy metals......
Martin
On 1/2/2017 12:58 PM, Paul K. Dickman wrote:

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On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 20:52:46 -0600, Martin Eastburn

It shouldn't take that long to find out, Martin. The land will be tested before the next purchaser takes over. Oops!
- If ever the Time should come, when vain and aspiring
Men shall possess the highest Seats in Government,
our Country will stand in Need of its experienced
Patriots to prevent its Ruin. -- Samuel Adams
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http://www.gutenberg.org/files/53854/53854-h/53854-h.htm
-jsw
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message

Metalworking in China is about as old as in India and the Near East. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_South_Asia http://mathewpeet.org/science/materials/steel/history/
AFAICT the development in each region depended on the characteristics of the local ore, such as the phosphorus content that makes cast iron easier to melt and pour but steel weaker.
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