biodiesel as cutting fluid?

<SNIP>


Of course your sample is scientific. It's too bad that when we need a kidney transplant the first one will fail. ERS
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again.
of
I
degree
but I

was
health
doing
use
No claims of any kind. Simply reporting that which I know to be true. I am not endorsing the use of solvents, nor do I think they are harmless.
It's too bad that when we need a

Speaking of scientific matters? I fail to see the connection. Are you suggesting because you once saw a brown dog, that all dogs are brown?
Harold
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:39:09 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So, as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your statements. Whew! Cheers, Harold
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was
and
free
chlorothene
I
I
had
we
to
am
I figured you missed the point, and you did.
I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time to live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where people have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some instances, they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.
This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was severe. That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure has not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a case of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?
If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every time I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day, simply by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.
Harold
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<SNIP>

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular. Eric
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wrote:

Ive recently discovered Im sensitive to SafetyKleen solvent. I never used to be.
Gunner
Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael
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I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
in rec.crafts.metalworking :

    There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds, basically as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have been working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a pair and go into shock.     Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.
    Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating. Not to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.
tschus pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
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pyotr filipivich wrote:

I agree. I never had a problem with VOCs or cigarette smoke. Smoked for 20 years, washed parts with gasoline barehanded (when I was yound and stupid). Now any sort of VOC inhalation can trigger a weeklong illness much like the flu, maybe bronchitis. Cigarette smoke has a similar effect if I don't get away from it.
--
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Rex Burkheimer
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Rex B wrote:

07:39:42 GMT

never
basically
been
pair and

Not
for
illness
This is called "multiple chemical sensitivity" or "environmental illness." It is caused by chronic or acute toxic chemical exposure (a lot at once or a little every day) and it just gets worse and worse unless you do a lot of detox procedures for several years. Don't expect any help from the medical establishment either. Doctors tend to think it's a psychological illness, even though people have had anaphylactic shock and died from exposure to common chemicals like perfume. Any scientific research on the issue has been squashed by big corporations afraid of large scale liability suits and the threat of having to actually change their ways. Who would have thought? :P Fortunately "the liberals" have made a little progress in this area regarding prevention of chronic chemical exposure, even if it is a pain in the ass for factory supervisors.
Tap Magic ProTap contains 75% "oleic acid" aka refined acidified vegetable oil, 15% "methyl oleate" aka biodiesel, and 10% "organic polyol" whatever that may be. It costs $33 per gallon and warns to "clean and lubricate metal surfaces to avoid staining and or corrosion" after use. Works alright in my limited experience.
Biodiesel B100 which is 100% methyl oleate costs $1.65 to $3.50 per gallon.
Hmmmm...
Tap Magic Formula 2 Eco-oil appears to be (drumroll) vegetable oil at $37 a gallon. Funny how it costs more than the other stuff.
Here's my point: When you start off with biological materials such as vegetable oil, you usually have a 100% non-toxic substance. Whenever you do a chemical reaction you start off with impure reagents. As such, byproducts will form that were not intended to be in the final product. Products derived from biological materials will accrue more and more by-products with each chemical reaction along the way. No amount of purification can remove 100% of these byproducts from the final product. If your body happens to be allergic or sensitized to one of the byproducts, you can get sick from the 0.001 ppt of toxin - despite the product containing "no toxic ingredients". The immune system has a higher sensitivity to toxic chemicals than a mass spectrometer, so there's no practical way to test for trace contamination that could affect people. Lab grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might be perfectly safe, but Industrial grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might contain Trichloroethylene or worse. You have no way of knowing, especially if all you have to go on is the MSDS.
Personally, I'd rather "mix my own" than pay big bucks for someone else to poison me. That's why i'm looking into using biodiesel as a general purpose cutting fluid. Of course, I am using it on my homemade lathe to make homemade four jaw chuck with homemade cutting bits. Other people may not be so inclined.
-ben lipkowitz
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Probably like, ethylene, propylene (i.e. glycerin), butylene glycols (hm, never heard of that last one, though surely it exists) and so forth. Fat is glycerin trioleate, oil is usually a lower ester I think. And biodiesel replaces glycerin (especially higher-MW polyglycerides) with straight (literally) methyl oleate, as you noted. So basically... you've got diesel and oil.
Just cut to the chase and mix bacon grease with your favorite light oil. <G>
Tim
-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
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wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:39:42 GMT

and
Apparently one can develop a sensitivity to salts of the platinum group as well. I was fortunate to have never been troubled when I was refining.
Harold
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to
people
instances,
severe.
has
case
time
simply
That's a horrible story, and I'd certainly share your concern had I been involved. However, there's likely more to this than just getting a whiff of vapor. Such tanks are well known for suffocating people that enter them due to the displacement of oxygen by the cleaning solution vapors. That they are open makes little difference because the fumes are heavier than air and are not displaced easily. I'm not suggesting that I know that the person involved didn't suffer a reaction to the fumes, but I won't discount the possibility that he was deprived of oxygen, either. However, the fact that he recovered rather quickly when removed hints at oxygen deprivation, not poisoning.
Here's a link that pertains to perchloroethylene---http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/dryclean.htm
Take note of the last sentence in the last paragraph. It clearly states that the affect of exposure relates to the amount of exposure and the frequency.
Harold
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Ah, but you will be immortal on the usenet....

Toxics exposuire is a statistical thing, much like smoking. I know plenty of smokers who don't have lung cancer, doesn't make me want to start.
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snip---

start.
My sentiments, exactly. I don't smoke cigarettes, and never have.
In order to machine, there are certain risks that all of us must assume. It's fairly well known that the incidence of cancer with metal working people is higher than with those that do now work with metals, and there's no doubt that working with solvents is hazardous. The one big difference is that no one need smoke----that's a choice each one makes. You can live life from infancy to death without tobacco. It isn't an essential (contrary to the claims of those that are addicted).
If you choose to machine, you must and will expose yourself to certain hazards. It goes with the territory. Smart people do all they can to avoid any unnecessary contact with solvents, fumes and dust, but the only way to avoid them totally is to not machine. So then, one is prudent, avoids unnecessary contact, and enjoys the hobby. And they smoke, but they don't inhale! :-)
Harold
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:33:49 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"

One thing I have observed: Trichlorethylene going through a propane fired oven in enclose space causes a cigarette to taste like shit, but the effect wears off after about five hours. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
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Sulphur oil has the same effect on the taste of cigarettes. I remember we used to wash the oil off our hands with Trichlorethylene, it would turn your skin white as it dissolved the oil in your skin. There was a little old lady in one shop I worked in, that used to take it home and clean with it. There's nothing better for tapping a hole. Tap Magic used to be mostly Trichlor.
Dan
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Trichloroethylene? The stuff used in vapor degreasers? Bad stuff, Maynard. Heavy exposure can lead to ventricular fibrillation. The machining additive used to be 1,1,1, trichloroethane, which is quite different. Not that either of them are something I'd consider good for you! :-)
Harold
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Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.
Gunner
Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael
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wrote:

A few years ago (can't recall th' source) I read a breakdown of longevity by country. Japanese people were at th' top of th' list, ie, living th' longest. Coincidentally, they also had th' highest per capita of smokers than any other country.
Snarl
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On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:42:28 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@trippin.net wrote:

Ayup. There are MANY factors involved.
Gunner
Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael
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