biodiesel as cutting fluid?

We had a door to door salesman talk me into a vegetable oil based coolant about 15 years ago. He actually gave me the first gallon to try out. Since, at that time, most of our coolant was used with the brush dip method it lasted quite a long time. Several months after we started using it I notice that the machines were getting a sticky residue on all the surfaces the coolant evaporated from. Almost nothing would cut thru the gooo so we stopped using the crap and have been scrubbing away at the vegetable oil based varnish ever since. It did have very pleasant odor when it got really hot. It smelled like bread baking. Our current flush coolant is Blazers and we have been on the same drum for about 5 years and that is in four or five machines. I'd suggest using coolant that is intended for metal working. BTW The petroleum based coolant we used, in small amounts, has no sulfur odor though it tastes bad when you get it into our mouth. It comes from Champions Choice in Fullerton,CA and their special difficult to machine oil is fantastic. I use it when threading 304 SS and O-1 tool steel and I can make threads you would thing were rolled. Leigh@MarMachine

My sentiments, exactly. I don't smoke cigarettes, and never have.

In order to machine, there are certain risks that all of us must assume. It's fairly well known that the incidence of cancer with metal working people is higher than with those that do now work with metals, and there's no doubt that working with solvents is hazardous. The one big difference is that no one need smoke----that's a choice each one makes. You can live life from infancy to death without tobacco. It isn't an essential (contrary to the claims of those that are addicted).

If you choose to machine, you must and will expose yourself to certain hazards. It goes with the territory. Smart people do all they can to avoid any unnecessary contact with solvents, fumes and dust, but the only way to avoid them totally is to not machine. So then, one is prudent, avoids unnecessary contact, and enjoys the hobby. And they smoke, but they don't inhale! :-)

Harold

Harold is onto something that's only talked about in hushed tones today. Trichlor and other potent solvents have been used for cutting fluids under severe conditions, but not many people are alive to talk about it.

When Dr. Eugene Merchant was doing his research to quantify the metal-cutting process, back in the 1950s, he used carbon tetrachloride in many of his experiments examining the microscopic phenomena involved in peeling and shearing metal chips away from the parent metal. As most old machinists knew in those days, it was the ultimate cutting fluid. I have used it a couple of times for difficult hand-tapping jobs. Somehow it gets into the cleavage zone and cuts the forces down to something like half of normal, not to mention giving a superb finish.

Using it also is a good way to kill yourself. So, nobody talks about it today. In fact, I won't talk about it any longer. Don't do it, and you're on your own.

If you want to know more about the phenomenon of cutting metal, look up Gene Merchant's work. His ultra-high-speed machining experiments were really interesting: he shot a .30 cal. rifle bullet across a cutting tool. He learned that, above 10,000 sfm and continuing upward from there, cutting forces actually go *down*.

-- Ed Huntress

No claims of any kind. Simply reporting that which I know to be true. I am not endorsing the use of solvents, nor do I think they are harmless.

It's too bad that when we need a

Speaking of scientific matters? I fail to see the connection. Are you suggesting because you once saw a brown dog, that all dogs are brown?

Harold

One thing I have observed: Trichlorethylene going through a propane fired oven in enclose space causes a cigarette to taste like shit, but the effect wears off after about five hours. Gerry :-)} London, Canada

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I did some more reading and it seems biodiesel is being marketed in Canada as a substitute for methylene chloride based paint remover. Good thing my lathe doesn't have any paint on it anyway!

Gerald Miller wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Sulphur oil has the same effect on the taste of cigarettes. I remember we used to wash the oil off our hands with Trichlorethylene, it would turn your skin white as it dissolved the oil in your skin. There was a little old lady in one shop I worked in, that used to take it home and clean with it. There's nothing better for tapping a hole. Tap Magic used to be mostly Trichlor.

Dan

Only 20% of smokers ever have a smoking related illness.

Gunner

Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael

I still have some tapping fluids that contain Tri-clor.

Very old, but still work very well. Or so they say.

Gunner

Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael

Trichloroethylene? The stuff used in vapor degreasers? Bad stuff, Maynard. Heavy exposure can lead to ventricular fibrillation. The machining additive used to be 1,1,1, trichloroethane, which is quite different. Not that either of them are something I'd consider good for you! :-)

Harold

By the time I was in the shop, carbon tet was not being used. They used

1,1,1, trichloroethane (Chlorothene) instead. It's the same stuff that used to be found in Tap Magic and other brands of ferrous tapping solutions, as you likely know.

That's a little extreme if you're talking about Chlorothene. No one died, and as far as I know, no one lost their health. Well over 100 machinists worked at the facility. I fully agree with carbon tet.

So, nobody talks about it

They're still talking about Chlorothene, so much so that pints of old formula Tap Magic are selling for $50. It's worth every penny if you're tapping difficult material.

Harold

Yeah, I still have a can of it.

I was talking about carbon tetrachloride. When I was a kid we bought it at the pharmacy, as a component for our homemade dry-fly dope (carbon tet, and paraffin wax dissolved in it until no more will dissolve). I wonder how much of it went up my snoot over the years.

-- Ed Huntress

====================================== Anyone know if it is a chemical reaction or cooling due to the high evaporation rate? Anybody try acetone? freon? hexane?

GmcD

I bought a can of "original" tap-magic and it is indeed magic. Best tapping fluid I have ever used on steel. And it only cost me $50 a pint.

chuck

Of course not Harold. But you were implying that the health risks from certain solvents were minimal because neither you or the people you knew were apparently harmed by it. Applying your logic, exaggerated a little, to your friend with kidney failure, led to my statement. So, as you can see, I was being a little sarcastic. About both of your statements. Whew! Cheers, Harold

Chlorothene was wonderful stuff. In the '70's, I used to see millwrights toting open 5 gal buckets of it to big compressors or turbines during turnarounds. It was used like water. Of course, the plant made several hundred thousand pounds of it every day, so the cost was not a problem. I never heard of anyone who suffered any injury from exposure to it other than de-oiling skin.

Randy

I figured you missed the point, and you did.

I guess what I should have told the OP was that he had but a short time to live, because there are cases on file that are well documented where people have suffered and died from the same type exposures. In some instances, they grew three eyes and a couple extra legs.

This person is worrying about dying because he happened to sniff some chemicals a time or two. Being prudent, I provided a couple extreme examples of experiences I've had, in my mind, enough to put his mind at ease. Drawing from a group of over 100 machinists, there are none suffering from exposure at this point in time, and the exposure was severe. That's not to say that some won't have trouble, but if severe exposure has not brought forth any health issues over such a long period of time, a case of simple exposure on occasion is highly unlikely too. Get it, Eric?

If you think for even one moment that I feel the use of solvents is harmless, you're nothing short of nuts! I'm concerned each and every time I use anything as common as paint thinner. On the other hand, I also realize that to try to do the things I have to do and not use such substances is absurd. We face certain risks each and every day, simply by being alive. Prudent people do the best they can to avoid the hazards, but they don't quit living to do so.

Harold

A few years ago (can't recall th' source) I read a breakdown of longevity by country. Japanese people were at th' top of th' list, ie, living th' longest. Coincidentally, they also had th' highest per capita of smokers than any other country.

Snarl

Except your sample is too small to scientifically make that assumption. I worked at a place with a vapor degreaser. Me and another guy were cleaning it out after all the solvent had been drained and the unit left open to air a couple days. He went into the tank head first. It was about 4 feet deep and laying at an angle so he only had to bend over to get his hands to the bottom. He was nevertheless overcome by a small amount of fumes in about 15 seconds. My job was to stay outside and pull him out if something happened and it did. He just stuck his head in and went limp a few seconds later. I had breathed the solvent many times with no apparent harm. He just happened to be sensitive to it. Still, after dragging him outside it took a couple minutes before his breathing became regular. Eric