biodiesel as cutting fluid?

Ayup. There are MANY factors involved.

Gunner

Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious. michael

That's a horrible story, and I'd certainly share your concern had I been involved. However, there's likely more to this than just getting a whiff of vapor. Such tanks are well known for suffocating people that enter them due to the displacement of oxygen by the cleaning solution vapors. That they are open makes little difference because the fumes are heavier than air and are not displaced easily. I'm not suggesting that I know that the person involved didn't suffer a reaction to the fumes, but I won't discount the possibility that he was deprived of oxygen, either. However, the fact that he recovered rather quickly when removed hints at oxygen deprivation, not poisoning.

Here's a link that pertains to perchloroethylene---

Take note of the last sentence in the last paragraph. It clearly states that the affect of exposure relates to the amount of exposure and the frequency.

Harold

Wow! My exposure to tet was very limited. Not having tied flies, I'm not sure I understand, but I get the idea you painted it on, then allowed it to dry. Makes sense. You're lucky you worked on small objects, where exposure was minimal.

I landed on an interesting article when checking on solvents. I've included a link.

Take note of 2.0, where discussion revolves around Chlorothene affecting the ozone layer. Could it be that is the chief reason it has been removed from most products?

According to the 9th edition Merck Index, 1,1,1-trichloroethane is irritating to eyes, mucous membranes and, in high concentrations, narcotic. There is no mention of other problems. Maybe I'll sleep better tonight. I've not taken my exposure lightly, but worrying about it would serve no good purpose.

Harold

I bought my original tap-magic formula for scott logan. He claims that is why it is not so expensive. I only use tiny amounts of it and it truely is a great tapping liquid. Something that taps hard will change to easy when original tap-magic is used instead of new "improved" formulas. My only issue is how to apply small amounts without wasting it. I tried a little squeeze bottle and that works great but the liquid seems to disappear when stored in the small plastic bottle.

chuck

What do you call a 'smoking-related illness?' Don't just limit yourself to respiratory related ones, though.

The trouble here is, there's quite a statistical spike that catches folks who a) smoke, and b) have lifetime exposure to things like asbestos, solvents, metalworking, etc.

Because most folks here automatically fall into the b) catagory, they're aware of the link - and so avoid the a) catagory.

You don't really want to learn about the sorts of non-respiratory illnesses that tend to happen to folks who get caught on the statistical spike mentioned above. My mom is an enterstomal therapist nurse working at sloan kettering. I hate having converstations about this with her. Really puts one off the feed when talking over dinner.

Suffice it to say I've gotten very very cautions about *any* solvent use at work. Basically I've limted myself to ethanol. I figure if you can drink it it can't be that bad to get some on your hand. And I try to avoid that too.

The issue is, over the years workplaces have changed. It's no longer acceptable to have avoidable contact with solvents. By this I mean most employers are well-aware of the risks involved, and the legal liabilities that come along. Because of this, they do the utmost to provide fume hoods, protective gear and so on. Anyone who does not insist on that is crazy. Even more nutty if the gear is supplied and not used.

I almost quit my night job of a few years ago, early on, because they wanted me to use ethyl ether (starting fluid from a spray can) to clean white nylon parts after they were turned. The forman simply didn't understand the risk of doing this - he'd always done it and thought there was no danger at all. I printed out a copy of the MSDS for ether and brought it in. They stopped using ether as a catch-all shop solvent.

Jim

OK, I'll bite. What are the hazards? chuck

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in news:42428006 snipped-for-privacy@newspeer2.tds.net:

That's exactly the reason. Contrary to popular belief it can still be used but the emission standards are very tight. There are some parts that can only be cleaned by vapor degreasing with Trichlor. Particularly thin parts that don't have much mass and parts with small holes. There are closed loop vapor degreasers that have near zero emissions. Most are used with Perc where possible, since it's used in dry cleaning clothes it's more widely available and cheaper. IIRC, it has limitations in cleaning small holes and narrow areas, that's when you need the Trichlor. I could be wrong, it was a while ago. The company I work for was involved with this closed loop system for a while. I knew or at least remembered more then.

Does it work?

It was nice having a demo unit around, there is nothing better at cleaning parts than a vapor degreaser.

Aside from the fire issue, ether has been implicated in all kinds of kidney, liver damage. Most of those folks who developed anasthesia died of some combination of those ailments.

Jim

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner wrote back on Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:39:42 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

There seems to be an "issue" with a lot of organic compounds, basically as you say: you develop a sensitivity to the compound. People have been working with latex gloves for years, then "one" day they pull on a pair and go into shock. Or penicillin, or solvents, or ... what ever.

Biochemistry is so weird, interesting and completely fascinating. Not to mention something I don't understand beyond the superficial.

tschus pyotr

I agree. I never had a problem with VOCs or cigarette smoke. Smoked for

20 years, washed parts with gasoline barehanded (when I was yound and stupid). Now any sort of VOC inhalation can trigger a weeklong illness much like the flu, maybe bronchitis. Cigarette smoke has a similar effect if I don't get away from it.

Cool! Very impressive statistics.

I recall watching parts being introduced to the vapor degreaser----and seeing the contaminants start dripping off immediately. You could see the parts coming clean and watch the drops start running clear as they dripped off the clean items. That was with the simple heated type only, no fox tails or whistles (like ultrasonic and filtering). I can't imagine a better method of cleaning, but it certainly must be way beyond reach for the home shop types. Sigh!

Harold

Apparently one can develop a sensitivity to salts of the platinum group as well. I was fortunate to have never been troubled when I was refining.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in news:4244730b snipped-for-privacy@newspeer2.tds.net:

I definitely do not advocate boiling solvent at home, if if you can get your hands on it. I can't remember the numbers but Trichlor has skyrocketed in price. That's the advantage of the system that the Pero uses. It's distilling the solvent every cycle, then condensing the dirty solvent and reclaiming it. Those machines are seriously complicated. They make a ten axis Swiss look like childs play as far as maintenance and repair. You need to be a Jack-of-all-trades, and a master at all of them.

07:39:42 GMT

illness

This is called "multiple chemical sensitivity" or "environmental illness." It is caused by chronic or acute toxic chemical exposure (a lot at once or a little every day) and it just gets worse and worse unless you do a lot of detox procedures for several years. Don't expect any help from the medical establishment either. Doctors tend to think it's a psychological illness, even though people have had anaphylactic shock and died from exposure to common chemicals like perfume. Any scientific research on the issue has been squashed by big corporations afraid of large scale liability suits and the threat of having to actually change their ways. Who would have thought? :P Fortunately "the liberals" have made a little progress in this area regarding prevention of chronic chemical exposure, even if it is a pain in the ass for factory supervisors.

Tap Magic ProTap contains 75% "oleic acid" aka refined acidified vegetable oil, 15% "methyl oleate" aka biodiesel, and 10% "organic polyol" whatever that may be. It costs $33 per gallon and warns to "clean and lubricate metal surfaces to avoid staining and or corrosion" after use. Works alright in my limited experience.

Biodiesel B100 which is 100% methyl oleate costs $1.65 to $3.50 per gallon.

Hmmmm...

Tap Magic Formula 2 Eco-oil appears to be (drumroll) vegetable oil at $37 a gallon. Funny how it costs more than the other stuff.

Here's my point: When you start off with biological materials such as vegetable oil, you usually have a 100% non-toxic substance. Whenever you do a chemical reaction you start off with impure reagents. As such, byproducts will form that were not intended to be in the final product. Products derived from biological materials will accrue more and more by-products with each chemical reaction along the way. No amount of purification can remove 100% of these byproducts from the final product. If your body happens to be allergic or sensitized to one of the byproducts, you can get sick from the 0.001 ppt of toxin - despite the product containing "no toxic ingredients". The immune system has a higher sensitivity to toxic chemicals than a mass spectrometer, so there's no practical way to test for trace contamination that could affect people. Lab grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might be perfectly safe, but Industrial grade 1,1,1,Trichloroethane might contain Trichloroethylene or worse. You have no way of knowing, especially if all you have to go on is the MSDS.

Personally, I'd rather "mix my own" than pay big bucks for someone else to poison me. That's why i'm looking into using biodiesel as a general purpose cutting fluid. Of course, I am using it on my homemade lathe to make homemade four jaw chuck with homemade cutting bits. Other people may not be so inclined.

-ben lipkowitz

Probably like, ethylene, propylene (i.e. glycerin), butylene glycols (hm, never heard of that last one, though surely it exists) and so forth. Fat is glycerin trioleate, oil is usually a lower ester I think. And biodiesel replaces glycerin (especially higher-MW polyglycerides) with straight (literally) methyl oleate, as you noted. So basically... you've got diesel and oil.

Just cut to the chase and mix bacon grease with your favorite light oil.

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: