Brake cylinder sleeving

I have a 63 SWC Corvette and the brake cylinders keep rusting and going away. This is a single master cylinder drum/drum system. I would like to convert to a dual master and put stainless sleeves in all the cylinders. I am faily confident I can bore the cylinders out ok either on the lathe or the mill but I am unsure of what to use for the sleeves or where to get it. The car is not street worthy and is going to be going through a lot of other restoration but I would like to keep it mobile under it's own power for ease of working on it. I know I can buy sleeved cylinders but I would like to learn the process. I would also like some insight on the dual master cylinder and drum brakes as I have only seen dual masters on disk/drum or disk/disk vehicles. TIA Glenn

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Greetings Glenn, Some folks use brass instead of stainless for sleeving brake cylinders. I would. As far as the rusting is concerned this means (probably) water in the system so how is it getting in? Since you are going through the whole thing anyway have you considered silicone based fluid? I think it's designated DOT4. It was used in postal jeeps. I took one of these apart to do other work and was amazed at the pristine look of the internal brake system parts. Zero corrosion. It may be that this stuff is unsuitable for use in a Corvette, and you would have to bleed the system completely, but you may want to look into it.

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I hadn't thought of brass. I will look into that. I will be replacing virtually everything but the hardlines and even most of those will be replaced. I have seen stainless brake lines in a refit kit but am a bit leery of stainless brake lines as the fatigue factor could be a problem.. don't know just a baseless fear. As to the water getting in .. sitting in uncontrolled environment for several years tends to do that. It could be that the silicone will be a good cure but I was reading that water still gets into the system .. it just dosen't mix with the silcone based fluid like it does with the glycol based fluids. Thanks for the ideas. Glenn

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Glycol based fluids absorb water. So any water that enters will eventually be spread throughout the system. Silicone based fluids do not. Silicone based fluid systems may allow water into the master cylinder but I don't see how it would spread. The mail jeep cylinders all around were pristine looking inside. And I know for a fact that this fluid had been in the jeep for at least 12 years. But this is of course only one sample and may be a fluke. Have you heard of stainless tubing developing cracks sooner than plain steel tubing? Something you may not know is that stainless needs free oxygen to keep it corrosion free. The steel develops an oxide coating very quickly when exposed to air. This is what prevents further oxidation. Aluminum also does this. I can imagine a situation where stainless liners would corrode quickly. A couple marine examples: Washington State runs a bunch of ferries. Stainless piping that carries salt water is not used on these boats because of internal corrosion. At least one boat was built and delivered with stainless piping. The boat(s) was (were) returned to the builder to have the SS replaced. In my years working in machine shops near Puget Sound I have made several prop shafts. Most from monel or other high nickel alloys. Some prop shafts that I made were replacements. When this happened the old shaft was always brought in as a sample. The old prop shafts would be put on the stock rack for making odd parts. The stainless shafts always had what looked like worm holes that started at the prop end. These holes would wander down the length of the shaft. The deepest were nearly two feet long. They were caused by the shafts always being submerged in salt water. In the early 1980's it was discovered that the anerobic environment not only allowed the stainless to corrode (expected) but that it also allowed biodegradation of the stainless. This was discovered in the stainless coolant piping in a nuclear power plant. I hope you found the above interesting. ERS

Glenn - contact white post restorations, they offer a brake cylinder sleeving service to the old car restoration hobby - I've used them for work on my 51 dodge - you mail them the stuff, they sleeve it and send it back -
there are other services that specialize in sleeving Corvette calipers especially - quite a few of them can be found in Hemmings motor news - I have not personally used any of those.
you are having rust problems because brake fluid is hydroscopic and absorbs water. to avoid this, change your brake fluid every year, or every other year. If you do this, you will have no corrosion and your brake hydraulic stuff will last almost forever. Alternatively, if you are careful, you can use DOT 5 fluid, which is hydrophobic, but you have to be careful to not entrap air bubbles as you pour it into the master cylinder. I have used DOT 5 in several cars, in some it leaked out (because it does't cause seals to swell like the glycol fluid), in others it was OK. your vette will probably be OK.
extensive tests have been done with DOT 5 Bill
www.wbnoble.com
to contact me, do not reply to this message, instead correct this address and use it
will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com ***

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"Hydroscopic" refers to a hydroscope - an optical device used for viewing objects below the water's surface. Correct term is hyGroscopic.....absorbing or attracting moisture from the air.
Common error...........
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Meaning it does NOT absorb moisture. Having litrtle or no affinity for water.
Therefore, any moisture in the system is NOT suspended in the fluid. It goes, instead, to the lowest point usually the calipers and wheel cylinders.
ALL braking systems have moisture in them.......
And, water is heavier than any brake fluid......
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I've seen anal-types pour DOT 5 ever so slowly into the M.C., then pump the schidt out of it to bleed the brakes........
AND, you NEVER want to use DOT 5 with ABS........EVER!!!! ......for the very same aeration reasons.
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.....which concur with what I stated above.
REAL race cars are now using DOT 5.1 - drivers, crew chiefs, and teams being fed up with spongy pedals and losing brakes when tiny pockets of water in the calipers turn to compressable steam from brake heat.

Thanks Bill, There are many well known sources for sleeved cylinders. I want to do it myself :) I did find out that I can get the dual Master cylinder at normal supply houses. A 67 Camaro Drum/Drum power brake cylinder is a direct replacement with the proper valves for drum brakes. Disk master cylinders have no valves to hold the fluid from going back into the resivoir.
Glenn
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A couple of tips:
Sleeving should be done with stainless steel. If it is being done with brass, find another shop.
The best sleeving I've seen entails putting a thread inside the cylinder, with a matching thread on the outside of the sleeve. The sleeve is then screwed into the cylinder (with appropriate goop). Such a sleeve will not move, and will not leak. Takes a machinist who care to do it, though.
I recommend Autosport Seattle, 2121 Westlake Ave., Seattle 98121 (206.621.1940), http://www.autosportseattle.com /. Their sleeving is fantastic.
Eelloin
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:37:02 -0700, "William B Noble (don't reply to
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There has been quite a discussion on SS versus brass for sleeving. If you want to pursue this, suggest you contact White Post directly. I am very happy with the brass sleeved cylinders. Perhaps the difference is racing (e.g. the autosport site) versus classic car restoration - I have no opinion to offer RE racing applications, nor sadly do I recall the gist of the pro/con arguements - suffice it to say that at the time (a decade ago?) I was convinced that for my purposes brass was the proper solution.
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Bill
www.wbnoble.com
to contact me, do not reply to this message, instead correct this address and use it
will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com ***

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This I believe is what Joe Way, of Sierra Automotive does.
He was a regular on this ng, and I think he still maintains that business. Check him via google.
Jim

Glenn wrote:
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J&D Corvette in Bellflower California sells a full conversion that includes stainless calipers. They are definitely a great resource for this sort of project. Get a hold of Woody Park.

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Dual master cylinders were in use with drums all 'round a long time before disks were in use.
Mark Rand RTFM

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Mark, any idea what modle/year chevy master cylinder would replace the single on my power brakes? I have done a lot of reading/looking and have not found anything for cars. Glenn

Glenn wrote:
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I installed a dual master cylinder on my 1951 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup truck with drum brakes front and rear, and it has been working fine for over 7 years. It took a little doing to come up with a cylinder that would work, since the majority of dual master installations seem to be on vehicles with power brakes and I needed something that would work with manual braking. Your rusting problem is probably from moisture that is absorbed by old-style brake fluid. Changing to the newer silicone fluid should eliminate the rust, but as I understand it you will need to completely clean the brake system of all traces of the old fluid first.
Mike

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LOL .. that is exactly why I want to go to dual MC .. I recall all to clearly trying to drive down the road and add brake fluid to the resivoir between my feet so I might be able to stop at the next light :) I had a 40 Chev 1/2T and a 57 Chev 1/2T They both had a habit of dropping the pedal to the floor at any whim. I even took the 40 in and had a brake shop go through the whole thing. The only adjusted one end of the slave cylinders and the first time I had to hit the brakes hard the seals blew out. Any ideas on where to look for a dual M/C replacement for 63 power brakes? All the dual M/C vettes are disk drum and I sorta want to stay with the drum drum. Glenn

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My guess is he means "Split Window Coupe" .......
..........kind of a redundancy - "1963 Corvette Coupe" and "Split Window."

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Well, since so many of them at the time were "upgraded" to the 1964 one-piece window, it's probably worth noting if it's still original.

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I didn't use the word coupe. I apologize for using a not so common acronym. I have just been reading so much about it that it sorta popped out :) This one does have the split window. I really hope I never get a broken rear window in this rig .. Prices are more like airplane parts than car parts LOL Glenn

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While it is true that silicone fluid is NOT hygroscopic (water-absorbing), it is ALSO true that since water is heavier than the silicone fluid, any water in a silicone fluid environment heads right to the lowest point of the system - usually the calipers and wheel cylinders - exacerbating the rusting problem.
You are actually better off with DOT 5.1 glycol-based fluid. It has the highest dry and wet boiling points of all brake fluids.....
......and, it will suspend any moisture within the fluid - keeping it away from the wheel cylinders and calipers.

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I had some like problems with old Volvos. Water would get in somehow, over time. My solution was to periodically flush the entire brake system with brand new fluid, thus getting rid of all water and dirt that had somehow gotten in.
Joe Gwinn