Ford Methods and the Ford shops

George has it right. Don't bark up Detroit's tree.

The reason you can't get a high efficiency small diesel truck or diesel car is the EPA regs and California CARB regs, and the other states such as New York that follow California. Between particulate and NOX emmissions, engine manufacturers can't produce an engine to meet the regs.

Larger trucks are exempt from these regs.

That may change as ULSD (ultra-low sulphur diesel) starts becoming widespread in 2007, allowing the installation of exhaust filters, catalytic converters, and urea injection systems.

Look for more diesel offerings in 2008.

Tony.

Reply to
Tony
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Nah, for me it's the shit car repair system. I can't get a car (or truck) fixed PERIOD. Especially by the dealerships.

So I stopped buying Ford and bought Honda. And they can actually fix their products when they have a problem.

-gc

Reply to
Gene Cash

You can buy fuel efficient Nissan UD's, Mitsubishi Fuso's, etc. in the

13-14,000 GVW range and up. This is the smallest UD that is offered in America (But not NY, Cal, MA, VT):-due to emission standards
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Notice it has a 4 cylinder, turbo 175 HP engine- as opposed to a 250 HP V-8 diesel in a little pickup truck

Reply to
ATP*

Bingo! The reason many small diesels don't make it into our country is that we regulate diesel emissions differently than the members of the EU. We are more stringent.

Now the up side of this is that the EU has gasoline that we need that we trade diesel fuel for that we don't need as badly. The global energy market is very complex.

Wes S

Reply to
clutch

Nope. Different standards for heavy trucks. The problem anticipated is having a large percentage of passenger cars and light trucks running on diesel, as they do in Europe now.

Cars built to the new, cleaner diesel technologies from Europe will probably force the US government's hand to set a higher standard for diesel fuel, more like yours.

I've never heard that the third-party safety standards are higher in Europe. Our cars look a lot like your cars now. Are there differences in this type of safety standard?

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

That $1500 is why Detroit makes big, expensive cars. Easier to hide $1500 in a $45,000 vehicle than in a $12,000 dollar one. It is also why you may have such a frustrating time repairing one since anything that makes it cheaper/easier to service that adds cost is likely to be eliminated in continuous cost cutting.

As far as being reborne, maybe after the bankruptcy auction. Now who and what country will own each former firm is up for grabs.

Wes S

Reply to
clutch

Big trucks (2007) will be using ULSD and be much more cleaner than prior years. You might have noticed a rise in how diesel fuel tracks gasoline a few months ago. IIRC, we went from 500ppm diesel to 15ppm back in September or October of this year.

Since ULSD is what is at most pumps we are all using ULSD now.

Wes S

Reply to
clutch

Neither of them design their own vehicles. They buy through contracts from places like Grumman/Olson, Utilimaster or Union City. They spec the colors and the interior racks and what engine they desire from a list.

USPS, DOES design there smaller city delivery rigs, those are made by the same company that developed the original Hummer. GM. They use the S series drive train with a CNG conversion on the engine.

Over the road Owner Operators worry about fuel mileage a lot, however there isn't a lot that can be done beyond what has been done already. Delivery drivers don't worry because they pass the price on. The OO cannot since he will price himself out of a job.

Reply to
Steve W.

================= Translation:

Its completely screwed up, but it allows the favored few to screw the rest of us.;

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:58:43 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon Elson quickly quoth:

They're running some now.

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Maybe the ZAP was what Grant wanted.
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?id=3872 Hmm, one of these might work for me around town...

-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

Reply to
Larry Jaques

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:19:40 +0000, with neither quill nor qualm, Mark Rand quickly quoth:

"Which is SUCH A CROCK OF SHIT IT ISN'T FUNNY." he stated, quite neutrally.

-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

Reply to
Larry Jaques

No, big oil jumps through all sorts of hoops to provide fuel to customers. The ones that own the oil wells and set the regulations and tax the product are the ones grabbing the big bucks off of the table.

Wes S

Reply to
clutch

Hey, ED I think you got that right! Them smart drugs are working. Now get dig Pharma to dump them in all the drinking water .

Reply to
Why

Unfortunately the ultra-low sulfur diesel only addresses part of the problem:

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"The primary purpose of lower sulfur fuel is to enable or improve the performance of aftertreatment technologies.

Fuel sulfur tends to degrade the effectiveness and longevity of aftertreatment devices by inhibiting the function of catalysts and filters. However, reduced sulfur will also provide a small emissions benefit without additional aftertreatment, because a portion of particulate matter (PM) emissions is comprised of sulfates, the formation of which is a direct function of the level of sulfur in the fuel."

The newer trucks are much cleaner and some retrofit options are available for older vehicles.

Reply to
ATP*

======================= As it has not been reported that there are heaps of bodies in the streets of European cities, not that their hospitals are full of people with respiratory problems, it would appear that their [EEC] regulations are adequate, although these might not be perfect.

This is not to say that some improvement is not desirable, but the benefits must be compared to the costs.

The problem appears to be excessive population density. If you cram enough people into the "Garden of Eden" you will have problems. This was true long before the invention of the internal combustion engine and the automobile. Thus the cure is not cleaner engines and/or mass transit but relocation of massive numbers of people from the coasts [back] into the empty heartland. Suitable tax credits/surcharges on both individuals and companies should be adequate, possibly by zip code of residence. I see no justification for the huge subsidies the high population density urban areas now receive that simply exacerbates and amplifies the problems. As this would directly impact the pols boodle bags, and in some cases their elective positions [seats in the House of Representatives move with the population] you will see supersonic flying pigs before this occurs.

More than likely, if the Federal government mandated that EEC compliant vehicles were also Federal EPA, and especially CARB/NY/VT compliant, most of the vehicles imported under this waiver, would be in the salvage yards, long before any new US standards/technology were implemented. It is an old but true engineering saying that "The better is the enemy of the good."

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

=================== Who said anything about big oil?

Big oil are just the w***es. The pimps are always the ones that take most of the money. They will protect "their" w***es as long, and only as long, as they are moneymakers.

The people making the big money *MAY* have had contact with oil in a can of 10W30 in their youth, but are now in petroleum-related speculation, profiteering, ForEx manipulation, derivative cooking, etc.

If it wasn't oil, it would just be something else, like food or drugs [pharmaceutical or recreational].

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Ahh, too bad, you should have gotten a Toyota! :~)

I've been driving a 1989 Toyota station wagon, and it is the most reliable thing I've ever seen. I did have it rust-proofed although the dealer said I was crazy. It has no rust on it, and I've replaced a starter motor and an ignition harness, as well as the usual timing belt, brakes, batteries, muffler, etc. I'm still using the original clutch, even, past 160,000 miles! This thing is NEVER going to die! I've even tried to teach two daughters to drive stick-shift on the thing! That should have cost mne a clutch for sure!

We've had 2 "American brand" cars in a row that ate transmissions. We got an independent shop to rebuild one for $1300, the last one wound up in the dealer shop to the tune of $3100! Yikes! We had about $4000 of warranty work done on that one while it was STILL in warranty, too! How can a manufacturer stay in business like that? I finally broke my wife of that pernicious habit of "buy American" and now she drives a Toyota van. Of course, it WAS made in the US! We haven't had it long enough to know for sure how reliable it really will be, but so far, so good. The electric sliding door is a Bosch/Chrysler product as best as I can tell, and we had some problems with it, but it turned out to be the kids were manhandling it. If we can keep them from fooling with it while it is moving under power, it seems to work fine. (Damn - any time you mix computers with some totally stupid function like a DOOR, fer Crissakes, you are asking for trouble! The damn door has position encoders, lock monitors, transmission interlocks, NNnnoooooo!!!)

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

30 years? Hmm, let's see. We got that 1973 Dodge Dart just over 30 years ago, so you are right on the nose! What a PIECE of KRAPPPP! They only had one set of brake cylinders/master cylinder for all options. But, you could order a slant 6 with no power accessories, or a 318 V-8 with A/C, power steering, power brakes, auto trans, etc. and add close to 1000 Lbs to the front end of the thing! When you got one like that (we did) it was lighter in the back than a pickup truck with nothing in the bed. Just put your foot near the brake pedal and it would start swerving. Drive it in icy weather? Yikes, it would skid when you took your foot off the GAS!

And, that first-generation unibody? I learned to hold the wheel at

3 and 9 O-clock with my very fingertips when going over railroad tracks. Otherwise it was like holding a jackhammer!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Hah! I've got it. Futures and derivatives trading on taxes. That's the way to do it :-)

Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

The whole thing for Big Pharma is figuring out how to get the payers on board. I don't think you'll get the HMOs to go for it. Should we sell shares, maybe, in the local water supply?

-- Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

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