FS Dayton MIG welder 225A

Because bottles with names cast in the collars are owned by the company, and not able to be just exchanged freely as you claim, rather exchanged under the terms of the rental/lease agreement.

Reply to
SteveB
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Apparently no. Iggy bought and paid for a bottle, and was able to sell it to a person who could use it without going through the gyrations the supplier wanted them to. Or just wanted to take the easy way out.

I bought and paid for a cylinder that the seller (an honorable man I know) stated he owned. When I took it to refill, they asked me to return it, which I refused. (It stayed on the back of my truck until after negotiations.) Said bottle had been out of hydro for 18 years, although still under pressure. If said bottle was an issue of a rental/lease agreement, that would have been resolved years hence, therefore giving the possessor 9/10 of the weight of the law. My exception was that the company that was dealing with the refills refused to give me ANY consideration at all even after I had spent over $3,000 last year with them.

There are cases where one clearly purchases a dubious bottle. In other cases, there should be some leeway on adjusting these bottles so as to keep the person's continuing business. If the companies want to blackmail you and be hardheaded, you just put it in a lathe, or smooth the embossing off. Do the math. Would they rather yank you around on a $200 tank, or keep a customer that does $3k a year with them. I know what I'd do.

After a person having a bottle in their possession nearly twenty years, I would ASS-U-ME that the company would "no longer maintain an interest" in the bottle, as you put it.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

So what if he was honorable. Could it more likely be that he thought he owned it because he didn't understand the contract?

So you advocate stealing the bottle which the company PROVED they owned?

If I was the one who had the company who owned the bottle you would have been arrested and charges filed against you.

So because the other person didn't bother to return it gives YOU legal title to keep it? Damn where did you come up with that?

The company OWNS the bottle until they either are bought out by a different company (who then own those bottles) OR the company goes out of business. If they go out of business and sell the bottles outright then you woudld get a reciept saying you owned it.

Reply to
Steve W.

Regarding the ethics of rental tanks: as far as I know, for each of the "company owned" tanks, there was a deposit paid that exceeds the value of the tank. When these tanks later change hands, the gas supplier keeps the deposit, whihc is the money that it also had an opportunity to use for years. This was the case with my own bottle rental from Terrace: they took a big deposit and gave me a bottle.

So, taking that bottle does not result in that supplier being hurt financially.

The so called "ownership", in this case, is just a way to prevent people from going to other suppliers with that bottle, in other words, this is basically a legalized racket.

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Reply to
Ignoramus27237

I never questioned that point, for bottles who's lessors still exist and have legal ownership. I still think that returning the lessors property is the best course.

Let's agree to disagree about bottles that lost their lessors during times of economic downturn. If no one has legal, legitimate ownership, can we safely assume that the lessee assumes legal title?

Does 'Sparks Welding' assume legal title to 'Burns Welding' outstanding lease stock after 'Burns' goes out of business, sans any contractual agreement between them?

I hardly think that 'Sparks' has any standing at all, here.

But that's why I ask.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Winston wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com:

A moot point: unless the lessor simply abandons everything - including buildings, equipment, etc. - and shuts down operations without ANY outstanding bills then SOMEBODY took ownership of the business including ALL assets.

This includes any bottles "on lease" at the time of the closure.

Therefore SOMEBODY actually OWNS the "on lease" bottles even though that SOMEBODY may not have any business presence within 3,000 miles.

Reply to
RAM³

So, 'Burns Welding' of Barstow, CA goes out of business. The receiver is a Real Estate Investment Trust based in Manhattan.

Fred brings his 'Burns' leased bottle into 'Sparks' for a swap. Sans any legal agreement between 'Burns', 'Sparks' or the REIT, does 'Sparks' magically become the new owner of the bottle, somehow? How can this be?

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Winston wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com:

Since the individual who presented the bottle is NOT the owner (as evidenced by the marked ring) the supplier is simply "protecting" the customer by taking the "stolen property" [Theft By Bailee] off his hands and holding it for delivery to the proper owner - REIT according to your scenario....

FWIW, your original question only proposed "ownership" of "orphan bottles" be vested in the possessor.

Reply to
RAM³

"Rich Grise" wrote

The "collar", or area that looks like cast metal just below the threads is where MOST identifying marks are. It goes around the tank, and is about one inch wide. Embossed means that the letters or symbols are cast in sand, and are raised. They can also be stamped in metal stamp numbers and letters just below that where the dates of hydro testing appears.

Usually, the "owner" bottles have a "collar" that has no embossed lettering, as in company name. There are a lot of USN tanks around, meaning U. S. Navy, but those were sold as surplus, and are considered "owner" tanks. So it is with bankrupt companies, and companies that are out of business provided the ensuing company does not claim rights to them. They can be traded bottle for bottle, provided they are within hydro, have an identifying paper ID label designating what gas is inside, and that they have no manually stamped ID below that. If they are not in hydro, and you are a good customer, they may forego that, and just trade you out. Worst thing is to have an open valve, or a cylinder with no paper label on it, as then it has to be emptied, purged, and tested. With an open valve, there is a chance that moisture has gotten in there, and the valve has to be removed, the cylinder has to be endoscopically inspected, and maybe polished internally by rolling with ball bearings and an abrasive medium. Then purged and filled. So, when you use your cylinders, resist the urge to drain them dry, and leave SOME pressure in them.

Next time you're at your gas supplier, ask the counter geek, and they will probably give you a tour and explain it so you understand when you are looking at bottles for sale what exactly you are looking at and whether or not it coincides with the story your being given.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

"Steve W." wrote

bullshit snipped

I own the bottle. I paid for it. It has no identifying marks. It has since been traded for a full bottle.

Case closed.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

The company I leased a bottle from charges 60% or more to refill a bottle than the company that exchanges owner bottles.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

And if I'm a customer with an account who has already spent $3k with you this year and I bring in a bottle, what do you do? Do you insist that I give it back, or do you bend a bit and make some sort of a compromise to keep my business? This company was not bending at all.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

Why am I not surprised...

i
Reply to
Ignoramus27237

Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn

(...)

I didn't see a smiley, RAM³.

If I park my Hertz rental around the corner in the Avis lot to check on a friend's reservation and Avis has my rental towed to impound, I am the one being protected, yes? All agree that I don't own the Hertz car, but Avis has the obligation to assume that I stole it and will 'protect' me thusly? Did I get that right? :)

How often do you suppose that 'Sparks Welding' delivers off-lease 'Burns Welding' gas bottles across the country to the Manhattan offices of the Real Estate Investment Trust? 'Sparks' wouldn't keep the bottles for their own use, do you suppose?

Why is this is not considered theft from the lessee?

My original question was poorly worded. It was: "Turning down the collar would make a perfectly acceptable trade-in hinky, yes?"

I meant to ask if a reasonably attentive welding outlet would suspect fraud if presented with a gas cylinder that had been modified to remove identifying information that named another 'local supplier' as it's owner.

In the same post, I said that modifying the bottle would be "self defeating".

It would be *much* better for the possessor to leave the bottle un-modified and return it to that 'local supplier'. I implied that an off-lease 'Burns Welding' bottle that had no current owner might easily be returned to 'Sparks Welding' for cylinder credit just as if it were an 'owner' bottle. Why not?

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

"Winston" wrote

What the f*ck is a "hinky"?

Reply to
SteveB

Well, they do keep them - Sorta. One supplier I used to frequent a lot had their entire back yard rear and side fences lined with old bottles - from other suppliers.

And they weren't 3000 miles away, many were within 100 miles, and there were often a few dozen from the same supplier batched up in a row, enough to make it worth sending a truck over to pick them up. ANd not from the 1930's, many weren't all that old or obviuously damaged - they just had that collar on them.

When I asked, I was told they never even try to contact the alleged owners, they just "recover" them from the people who "stole" them and treat them as 'Found Steel Pipe in an odd shape." And turned them into a nice fence.

It is theft, but they do this as a "Professional Courtesy" - and then they keep what they recover for their own. Something still seems mighty wrong with this...

It would be nice iof you could take that long drive to the next county and turn that "Burns" botle back to a Burns location and get a nice 'Finders Fee' for your trouble.

The only thing you are liable to get is arrested for stealing. Insane, but true.

Someone pass me the die grinder.

The trick is to match the patina after you finish the grinding duties, so you don't have a very obvious shiny spot on an otherwise mill finish ring. I know it'll be a problem, but I've never had to tackle the problem myself... Sandblast with silica? Shot peen? Bead blast? Chlorine Bleach wipe to accelerate rust patina?

-->--

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

Bruce L. Bergman wrote: (...)

OK, now I'm completely confused! :)

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

"Hinky" means 'to appear suspicious' or 'to be questionable'.

"Turning down the collar would make a perfectly acceptable trade-in appear suspicious, yes?"

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:44:37 -0600, the infamous "SteveB" scrawled the following:

Abby is giving you her famous double glare right about now, Steve. (You obviously don't watch NCIS, foo, or you'd know the terms "Abby" and "hinky" intuitively.)

A hinky deal is one which is bolloxed up. You say to yourself "I don't like this. It feels wrong. Something's _hinky_ here!"

You know, the way you feel when you climb under that used car you're thinking about buying and you see the 3 muffler bearings have been wired up with baling wire, the gas tank is duct-taped up, etc.

Reply to
Larry Jaques

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