Grinding or Turning a Morse Taper?

Hi folks,
I have a machining question for the group. I have acquired a nice bori ng head for a lathe tail stock. It has a smooth adjustment motion with a b
ig dial calibrated in mils and it would be a really nice accessory for my 1 952 Montgomery Ward / Logan 200 10" lathe.
However, the integral shaft of the head is 3/4" in diameter and will not fit the Morse #2 taper of my tail stock. So, what can I do about it?
I was thinking I should cut a Morse taper into the shaft. There is plen ty of diameter and length to do that, and it would allow for quick swap-out s when I need it. I read through "How to Run a Lathe" and browsed the vari ous ways to cut a taper: A) turn the compound to the desired angle and cut at an angle. B) Offset the tail stock and hold the part between centers. Cut straight. C) Use a taper attachment.
I don't have a taper attachment, so C) is out. B) seems a little iffy a nd I'd need to grind down a center to clear parts of the dovetail integrate d into the head. Also I don't trust how securely the part can be held at t he necessary offset to get the taper.
So, A) seems to be the best option. I can set the angle to better than a degree by putting a micrometer on my compound and running it along the si de of a known good MT2 taper held in the lathe chuck. ...actually, I just calculated, if I get the compound parallel to the desired taper by 0.5 mils over a 2" length, that's within 0.15 degrees of the correct angle.
QUESTION 1: How accurate does this angle have to be to have a good Mor se taper? How smooth does the cut have to be? What are the pitfalls to c utting a taper by rotating the compound?
And it appears that my boring head shaft is soft enough to scratch with a hard steel cutting tool, so...
QUESTION 2: Do I have to grind the taper or can I cut it with a carbide tipped turning tool?
I've never cut a taper before, and I need to get this one right to make sure I don't screw up my boring head, so advice would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Dan
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Daniel Koller wrote:

Unfortunately, very. What you may have to do, and it is really painful, is to get it as close as you can, grind the taper with whatever you can (Dremel, die grinder, etc. mounted on compound rest) to get it smooth and then test fit with a morse taper socket. Examine the dye and decide which way to adjust the compound swivel. Then, this is the painful part, you have to make infinitesimal adjustments to the compound angle and try again.

Pretty smooth, or it won't grab.

If the compound slide is worn, it may not travel in a straight line, leading to a barrel rather than a cone.

Start with the carbide and get as close as you can, but the finish likely needs to be ground.
Jon
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wrote:

I agree.
I wont cut morse taper males without doing it on a nice solid stiff CNC machine.
If your machine is worn...get a matching morse taper device and simply modify it.
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Hi folks,
I have a machining question for the group. I have acquired a nice boring head for a lathe tail stock. It has a smooth adjustment motion with a big dial calibrated in mils and it would be a really nice accessory for my 1952 Montgomery Ward / Logan 200 10" lathe.
However, the integral shaft of the head is 3/4" in diameter and will not fit the Morse #2 taper of my tail stock. So, what can I do about it?
I was thinking I should cut a Morse taper into the shaft. There is plenty of diameter and length to do that, and it would allow for quick swap-outs when I need it. I read through "How to Run a Lathe" and browsed the various ways to cut a taper: A) turn the compound to the desired angle and cut at an angle. B) Offset the tail stock and hold the part between centers. Cut straight. C) Use a taper attachment.
I don't have a taper attachment, so C) is out. B) seems a little iffy and I'd need to grind down a center to clear parts of the dovetail integrated into the head. Also I don't trust how securely the part can be held at the necessary offset to get the taper.
So, A) seems to be the best option. I can set the angle to better than a degree by putting a micrometer on my compound and running it along the side of a known good MT2 taper held in the lathe chuck. ...actually, I just calculated, if I get the compound parallel to the desired taper by 0.5 mils over a 2" length, that's within 0.15 degrees of the correct angle.
QUESTION 1: How accurate does this angle have to be to have a good Morse taper? How smooth does the cut have to be? What are the pitfalls to cutting a taper by rotating the compound?
And it appears that my boring head shaft is soft enough to scratch with a hard steel cutting tool, so...
QUESTION 2: Do I have to grind the taper or can I cut it with a carbide tipped turning tool?
I've never cut a taper before, and I need to get this one right to make sure I don't screw up my boring head, so advice would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Dan
Being in a simular sitution i used a MT endmill holder in the tailstock to hold round shank tooling. I later moved on to a tg100 collet chuck that has a range up to 1 inch.
The easy way. No muss, no fuss.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-4-MT2-morse-taper-2-END-MILL-TOOL-HOLDER-w-3-8-16-draw-bar-MT2-34-new-/311672849671?hash=item4891264507:g:KowAAOSwgZ1XqgDO
Best Regards Tom.
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Hi folks,
I have a machining question for the group. I have acquired a nice boring head for a lathe tail stock. It has a smooth adjustment motion with a big dial calibrated in mils and it would be a really nice accessory for my 1952 Montgomery Ward / Logan 200 10" lathe.
However, the integral shaft of the head is 3/4" in diameter and will not fit the Morse #2 taper of my tail stock. So, what can I do about it?
I was thinking I should cut a Morse taper into the shaft. There is plenty of diameter and length to do that, and it would allow for quick swap-outs when I need it. I read through "How to Run a Lathe" and browsed the various ways to cut a taper: A) turn the compound to the desired angle and cut at an angle. B) Offset the tail stock and hold the part between centers. Cut straight. C) Use a taper attachment.
I don't have a taper attachment, so C) is out. B) seems a little iffy and I'd need to grind down a center to clear parts of the dovetail integrated into the head. Also I don't trust how securely the part can be held at the necessary offset to get the taper.
So, A) seems to be the best option. I can set the angle to better than a degree by putting a micrometer on my compound and running it along the side of a known good MT2 taper held in the lathe chuck. ...actually, I just calculated, if I get the compound parallel to the desired taper by 0.5 mils over a 2" length, that's within 0.15 degrees of the correct angle.
QUESTION 1: How accurate does this angle have to be to have a good Morse taper? How smooth does the cut have to be? What are the pitfalls to cutting a taper by rotating the compound?
And it appears that my boring head shaft is soft enough to scratch with a hard steel cutting tool, so...
QUESTION 2: Do I have to grind the taper or can I cut it with a carbide tipped turning tool?
I've never cut a taper before, and I need to get this one right to make sure I don't screw up my boring head, so advice would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Dan
==================== Even if you succeed you may not like the result. Morse #2 won't resist much torque and the hole will likely taper smaller as the tailstock extends. Save the boring head for your Bridgeport. -jsw
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"Jim Wilkins"

+1
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On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:35:33 PM UTC-4, Daniel Koller wrote:

e sure I don't screw up my boring head, so advice would be appreciated!

My advice would be to find a piece of scrap stock and cut a morse taper on it. I think you can just use hss to cut the taper. Having made a taper, y ou can judge if it is exactly the right angle, how smooth the finish needs to be, etc. When you get an acceptable taper, leave the compound at that a ngle and cut the taper on the boring bar shank.
Is the shank part of the boring bar? Most boring bars screw onto a shank.
Dan
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Koller

Greetings Dan, Since you are only doing one part turning with the compound should work OK. You will need a Morse #2 socket to use as a gauge as well as some prussian blue. Keep in mind that the finished shank must be long enough for you to be able to eject it from the tailstock quill. If the existing shank isn't long enough you will need to add some length. To do this the end of the shank can just be tapped for a screw that sticks out enough. The screw does not need to be machined with a taper, it's just there to add enough length so that the shank can be ejected. Now, about turning that taper. Start gauging the taper well before you get to the finished diameter. To get a good enough finish will probably require polishing the the taper with sandpaper and/or a stone. So, turn the shank until you have a taper about 2 inches long. Wrap some good wet or dry sandpaper around something flat, like a 123 block, so that the sandpaper is backed up by a flat surface. Sand the taper carefully making sure that the surface is sanded evenly. Then try a test fit with a known good #2 socket. If the taper is pretty far off you will feel it rocking. You should be able to tell if the taper is more or less than the proper angle by observing where the socket is pivoting from, either the front or the back. Once you are very close apply a very thin layer of the prussian blue on the taper. Now try the socket on the taper, pushing it on and then twisting slightly. Removing the socket will reveal where the bluing has been rubbed off. You want to remove material from wherever the bluing has been rubbed off. The bluing can be bought at a good auto parts store. Ask for "bearing blue" or "high spot blue". If they don't know what that is tell them you need the marking compound used for setting the pinion distance in a rear differential. When you get the compound set correctly start removing enough material to get the taper to the proper length. When you are close and only a tiny amount of material needs to be removed for the taper to go deep enough into the socket don't move the tool in the X axis. Instead move the tool in the Z axis. This will make it much easier to get the shank to go in the proper amount. Good luck, Eric
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Nice machine. Some of us Know of the family that built it.
3/4" shaft ? wow that is large. Does it screw out of the head ? Many do.
If so then buy a Morse taper for it.
If you don't have the proper equipment it would be trivial for a pro shop to do the job. If the shaft is forever on the head (doubtful) it is a one time shot for the head. Wrong cut - trash the head.
Martin
On 4/4/2017 4:35 PM, Daniel Koller wrote:

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Check out :
http://www.lathe.com/
This is Logan Engineering - they made the lathes until the design was sold and discontinued. So they make parts for the machine from time to time. Have other parts as well.
Logan parts and maybe chucks. I bought a part and got it to fit my machine (Sheldon) with a little machining one adaptor.
Martin - they have a newsletter.....
On 4/5/2017 9:44 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

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HI All,
Thanks a ton for the great suggestions. I am still interested in learnin g how to cut tapers, so I will try on some scrap pieces. ...and aluminum first.
But it's really hard to beat China inc.! For the price of that e-bay MT2 to 3/4" tool holder, I just don't know how I could do better. Even at min imum wage, I would have to cut a taper in under 2 hours to beat it. So I think I will try the tool holder for starters and see how it goes. If ther e is too much slop in my tail stock and it proves to be pointless, I can st ill use the tool holder and I haven't altered the shaft of the boring head.
Yes, the boring head shaft is most certainly part of the head. I looked under a microscope to be absolutely sure there wasn't a seam hidden away.
As for the Logan, it's a nice lathe. I know the son of the guy who bough t it and started a business with in in 1952, so I know it's whole history. It survived a fire and 3 moves and all that was missing was one of the chu ck jaws. I've fully restored it and it works nicely. The cross feed is a bit tapered, as it tends to bind as it feeds in, but the bed is in decent s hape. The compound is new as the original one was broken. I used parts of the original compound and a new cross feed to mount a vertical carriage and vice for milling, so I just slide the cross feed off the end to switch bet ween the two. I *wish* I had a Bridgeport, but the lathe works fine to mil l small things.
Thanks again for the advice! I'm glad this group is still alive and thri ving.
Dan
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:35:33 PM UTC-4, Daniel Koller wrote:

ring head for a lathe tail stock. It has a smooth adjustment motion with a big dial calibrated in mils and it would be a really nice accessory for my 1952 Montgomery Ward / Logan 200 10" lathe.

ot fit the Morse #2 taper of my tail stock. So, what can I do about it?

enty of diameter and length to do that, and it would allow for quick swap-o uts when I need it. I read through "How to Run a Lathe" and browsed the va rious ways to cut a taper:

.
and I'd need to grind down a center to clear parts of the dovetail integra ted into the head. Also I don't trust how securely the part can be held at the necessary offset to get the taper.

n a degree by putting a micrometer on my compound and running it along the side of a known good MT2 taper held in the lathe chuck. ...actually, I jus t calculated, if I get the compound parallel to the desired taper by 0.5 mi ls over a 2" length, that's within 0.15 degrees of the correct angle.

orse taper? How smooth does the cut have to be? What are the pitfalls to cutting a taper by rotating the compound?

h a hard steel cutting tool, so...

de tipped turning tool?

e sure I don't screw up my boring head, so advice would be appreciated!

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HI All,
Thanks a ton for the great suggestions. I am still interested in learning how to cut tapers, so I will try on some scrap pieces. ...and aluminum first.
But it's really hard to beat China inc.! For the price of that e-bay MT2 to 3/4" tool holder, I just don't know how I could do better. Even at minimum wage, I would have to cut a taper in under 2 hours to beat it. So I think I will try the tool holder for starters and see how it goes. If there is too much slop in my tail stock and it proves to be pointless, I can still use the tool holder and I haven't altered the shaft of the boring head.
Yes, the boring head shaft is most certainly part of the head. I looked under a microscope to be absolutely sure there wasn't a seam hidden away.
As for the Logan, it's a nice lathe. I know the son of the guy who bought it and started a business with in in 1952, so I know it's whole history. It survived a fire and 3 moves and all that was missing was one of the chuck jaws. I've fully restored it and it works nicely. The cross feed is a bit tapered, as it tends to bind as it feeds in, but the bed is in decent shape. The compound is new as the original one was broken. I used parts of the original compound and a new cross feed to mount a vertical carriage and vice for milling, so I just slide the cross feed off the end to switch between the two. I *wish* I had a Bridgeport, but the lathe works fine to mill small things.
Thanks again for the advice! I'm glad this group is still alive and thriving.
Dan
================= Mount something with a Morse #2 shank in the lathe, put a dial indicator in the tool holder and see how well you can adjust the compound angle to follow the Morse taper. -jsw
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:35:33 PM UTC-4, Daniel Koller wrote:

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Howdy,
Yes, this is sort of what I was thinking of doing to get the initial angle close.
Out of curiosity, if I can only get but so close to the angle, is it better for the male taper to be more conical or less conical than the female for the best fit?
Dan
On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:46:46 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

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On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com"

<SNIP>

<SNIP> More conical, that way as the shank is forced into the socket the O.D. of the socket can expand slightly to fit the shank. But really, it's no big deal to get the taper correct. Jim's suggestion of indicating an existing #2 morse taper shank should get you very close. For this to work well though some care must be taken. First, indicate the taper shank so that there is as close to zero runout as possible at both ends. Then mount the indicator on the compound so that the tip is on the exact center line of the lathe. Now you can set the angle using Jim's suggestion. And when it comes time to turn the taper your curring tool also needs to be set at the exact center line of the lathe. If it is not you will not get the correct taper. I din't think you should buy the adapter you wrote about. If you use it the boring head will be hanging way out with a corresponding lack of rigidity. By the way, why are you wanting to mount a boring head in the tailstock? To set a center over in order to cut tapers? Eric
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....

Laziness!! Mainly I'd like it as a convenient way to make oddball size ho les. I have a quick-change tool post with a boring bar attachment, but mo st of the time I use a turret tool holder on the compound. It's nicely adj usted so I don't like to remove it often. That's why I have a whole separa te cross-slide for my milling attachment. Being able to swap a boring head into the tail stock seems like a convenient thing to do, assuming it's not too sloppy.
I think I am going to try to tool holder first, to make sure I like the w ay the boring head works. If it's ok, and just a bit sloppy, I might cut a taper on it directly to tighten it up.
Someone mentioned "save it for my Bridgeport". I wish!! I had an opport unity to pick up a Bridgeport for cheap from the same guy who I got my lath e from but at the time I didn't have any sensible way of getting half a ton or more of metal into my basement. And now I am married.
Dan
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On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Koller

I thnk you will find that the boring head used in the tailstock will make lousy holes. Especially if mounted in an adapter. I can already hear the chatter. Since you are using a turret why not make a block to hold a boring bar in the turret? If you mount the boring head in the chuck you can bore the block exactly on the lathe center line. And, as a bonus you can use the block to hold other centerline tools. Like if you need to drill deep holes. Winding the tailstock in and out is way slower than winding the carriage back and forth. Even if the block holds the boring bar shank outboard of the turret it will be much more rigid than the boring head hanging out of the tailstock quill. Eric
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On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 1:27:01 PM UTC-4,

tter for the male taper to be more conical or less conical than the female for the best fit?

As I said make a morse taper on a piece of scrap steel. Doing that will an swer all your questions. I think you will find it easier than most of the answers that you have gotten. My answer to the above is make it so it is t he best fit. After machining it you can use some relatively fine sandpape r to get a smooth finish and to improve the fit.
Dan
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My vote for "better" is to leave the boring head alone and use a boring bar toolholder on the carriage. Then all the factors that contribute to deflection will remain constant as the cut advances into the hole.
Before finding a proper one I adapted a boring head with a Morse #2 arbor to the Brown & Sharpe #7 spindle of my mill by shimming with a ring of aluminum auto body repair tape. It was good enough to cut holes for panel meters, but not when I needed to accurately bore a replacement bushing in a hydraulic pump. -jsw
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On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 2:49:22 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

-jsw
That is what I did. I have a lathe with a tool holding block on the compou nd. So I took a block of scrap steel and made it so it would fit in the t ool holding block. Then put a sharp rod in the chuck and used it to scribe a line on the new block. So that line was on the centerline. So offset a bit higher and drilled a hole to hold the boring bar. When you are cutti ng on the lathe you want the tool to be a bit below centerline. But in bor ing you want it a bit high.
And then drilled some holes and tapped them for set screws to hold the bor ing bar.
So now I just have to put a boring bar in my block and put the block in the tool holder. No fiddling with shims
Dan
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