Lathe on the way

Hello all,
Overlapping sales and the likelihood of more weakening of the dollar pushed me over the edge on the Enco 12x36 geared head lathe; the spindle
is D1-4. You might recall that I got pretty close to buying the belt-driven threaded-spindle version of the machine back in the fall. Long story short: I just couldn't go through with it, and ended up getting a better machine for the same (perhaps less) money than I would have paid for the lesser one in the fall.
Presumably in a matter of days, a lift-gated truck will appear at my curb. I am planning to use an engine hoist to lift the lathe (the manual has pictures of how to sling it), back my F-150 under it, drive the 50ft to the garage (it's the down-hill part that makes it fun w/o a truck), back in enough to reach level cement, and then again use the hoist to exchange truck bed for assembled stand. Sound about right? It weighs around 1000 lb.
I am a little concerned about getting the hoist to straddle the pallet; suggestions, lessons from the school of hard knocks, etc., would be appreciated. Enco tells me it holds 3 gallons of hydraulic fluid!!! That's on the way too. I ended up buying a a Rohm ball bearing chuck and an arbor. It was a LOT cheaper than the Jacobs chuck that I might eventually get (and have on an R8 arbor for my mill).
Assuming I know nothing about running a lathe (not far from the truth), any good reading assignments? I have a couple of Audel books, but I find them to be short on teaching: great references though. The Home Machinist's Handbook by Brinney looks helpful.
I will probably end up doing this on my mill, but is there a good way to face the ends of square tubing on a lathe? The pieces I have in mind are 2" square, 1/8" wall thickness, and vary from 11 to 14 inches or so. I assume the trick would be to make/get a rest for square tubing??? Beyond an opportunity to fiddle with the new toy, the cross-section is too deep to easily side mill (should have thought to buy long end-mills while I was at it), but with an R8 collet (to save vertical space) and some cranking, my mill should do the job with a fly cutter.
Bill
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You will be far happier with the D1-4. Back in 78 I took out a loan when I got to Japan to buy stereo equipment. The dollar was plunging vs the yen so even at the rates charged in that era, it worked out for me.

Did you pay for lift gate service? If you are going to use the truck, I'd have looked into non lift gate service and picking it up at the terminal where they have a forklift. That is what I did for my Jet 20" bandsaw.

The first thing is to have at least one friend that has moved things. Strapped to a pallet it likely isn't too tippy.
Slings and a wrecker sounds good to me. I moved a 12x36 but it was on a low trailer.
http://www.garage-machinist.com/usenet/rcm/clausing6900_unload.jpg
Digging holes for your back tires to lower the bed and using decent planking with the tailgate remove (assuming bumper works for this) might be an idea. Just take your time, be willing to tarp the lathe and call for help if it looks like it is getting out of control.

http://wewilliams.net/SBLibrary.htm
Look at his how to run a lathe pdfs. The basics haven't changed much.

I doubt you have a big enough spindle bore to stick it through the head. You would also need a bushing to keep the far end of the stick from whipping.
Lock the table, mill top edge of tubing, rotate 90, ect. I'd set the bit to cut flush with edge of the vise jaw. That way when you rotate your part 90, you can index to jaw edge. If the part doesn't stick up high enough to mill w/o hitting jaw, put something under stock.
Good luck,
Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:24:03 -0400, Bill Schwab wrote:

...
If you have a pallet jack, it's fairly easy to go up a lip like that, as follows: Drop pallet, pull jack back say 4", then lift. Move the pallet forward until the front wheels hit the lip. Drop the pallet, push the jack up over the lip, raise the load, go forward until back wheel hits the lip, drop pallet, pull jack out, move jack to opposite side of pallet, etc. -jiw
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James,

Interesting! I do not have one, but will probably get one eventually. For now, I _think_ I would rather hold out for a load positioner, especially with some storage options I have in mind. Of course, a pallet jack can handle a mill. Call me overly cautious, but if I end up with ton of mill in my garage, I want to be able to move it in an emergency. My favorite example scenario is a tree limb falls through the roof, and the mill needs to move either out of harm's way or to allow emergency repair access. In Florida, we think of such things.
Bill
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What I do to tip my trailer, is I keep it hitched to the truck and drive the rear wheels of my truck on a ramp (or just 2x10s).
i
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    Congratulations! This should be a lot better than the belt driven one -- as long as you manage to avoid crashes. (Belts are more forgiving of crashes.)

    O.K. I got my 12x24 Clausing from the flat-bed high truck which delivered it (pre-assembled to the pedestal) to my pickup truck by sliding it down a ramp made from five 10' 2x4s bolted edge on to three cross-boards on the bottom. I then drove it up the driveway, backed up to the garage, and slid it down the same ramp to the floor.

    I had no instructions (a used lathe, after all, but what I did was to jack up each end of the pallet and put cribbing under it -- first 2x4, then 4x4 then 2x4 on top of 4x4. Once I could do that, I could slide the legs under the long custom pallet to which the lathe was bolted.
    I removed the pallet, pulled it clear, and rotated the lathe so the headstock was towards the column of the engine hoist, and lowered it onto the floor. This allowed the legs to straddle it. If that orientation had not been possible, I would have lowered it onto cribbing again, removed the engine hoist, and using a rolling floor jack, removed 2" of cribbing height per cycle.
    Note that the 12x36" Jet which we got at work back around 1985 or so was brought in by professional riggers, but it was pre-assembled to its base, too. (The motor was in the base, IIRC, and lots of wiring in there, too. So it was brought in, the crate disassembled from around it, it was lifted clear of the pallet and that removed, too -- all by professionals.
    The real worry was that it (and the Bridgeport clone) were being mounted on a raised computer type lab floor. The trick was to put the load bads over the supported intersections of the floor panels where there was a jack column.

    You'll also prefer it to the Jacobs key type chuck, as long as you aren't using left-hand drill bits. I keep a Jacobs on an appropriate arbor for just that need. :-)

    Hmm ... Either South Bend's or Atlas' _How to Run a Lathe_ will be good starters -- though they all assume belt driven lathes IIRC. But a lot of the principles are the same.
    And for more serious, go for Moultrecht's _Machine Shop Practice_, which covers all machine tools. It is in two volumes, and will tell you about things which you don't even know to ask about once the time comes to find out about them.

    I've not seen it, but I might expect it to be aimed for lighter machines.
    The "manual" with the lathe will give you details about the lathe, but not instructions on how to use it.
BTW    I would suggest that you retire the 4-station turret toolpost     And instead get a BXA sized quick-change toolpost to put on     there. If you've got the money, start with an Aloris starter     set. Otherwise, go for a Phase-II set of the wedge style, not     the piston style (more rigid and less chance of the locking arm     swinging into the path of the chuck jaws). If you go Phase-II,     remove the 8mm setscrews which hold the tools into the holders     and replace them with ones from a box of US made ones (A box of     100 is quite cheap compared to the price you would pay at Home     Despot on a per-each basis. The supplied setscrews are likely to     split or round out and become very difficult to loosen unless     the Chinese screws have improved in quality since I got mine.     The rest of the toolpost and holders has been quite     satisfactory.

    Hmm ... I think that your D1-4 won't hold 2" square tubing through the spindle, and that is way too much to stick out unsupported from the chuck -- even if you can open a 4-jaw far enough to let it seat on the spindle nose.

    Make a "spider". A round tube large enough to accept the diagonal of the workpiece, with set screws coming in from four sides to center it, and with a surface free of setscrews wide enough for the standard steady to hold. If you want to get fancy, mill a square hole in it, then grip from the inside with a 4-jaw chuck (figuring out how to center in in the process) and turn an OD to accept the steady fingers.

    Arrggghhh! You're going to stand it on end? How are you going to support the upper end? Same problem as you would have holding it in the lathe chuck. Too long for its cross-section. You'll try to compensate by cranking the milling vise tighter and probably crush the square tubing to rectangular or worse.
    Mount it sideways in the vise, mill one side of each (plus a little over half-way through the other two sides, then set up a stop on the table so you can mount each piece to line up with the previous cut when you do the final cut.
    Or -- if you have a horizontal mill, put a 5" milling cutter of perhaps 1/8" thickness or so in and cut through the whole end in one pass. (yes, those old horizontal spindle milling machines still have their uses. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Don,

That part bothered me just a little, but it's not a good idea to crash things into machines anyway. It has a "fiber gear" to avoid total loses. They do not sell it online because they had problems with people buying the wrong one. Wanting to cash in on the extra 10% off for web orders, I figured I'd wait. However, I will get one to have on hand.

I think I would call for help before trying that.

That makes sense, and I will probably end up doing that. Did you start out with a pry-bar to get it off the ground, or is there a slicker way?

Understood about the headstock next to the column of the hoist - that is what I plan to use to get the lathe onto the stand (I hope<g>). It should work, assuming my mill is any example.

I can largely picture that, but what is the goal? If you can't straddle the lathe with the legs, would not want to keep it on cribbing and/or just lift it to your truck? Or, are you simply giving instructions for getting back down in that case?

>

Once the truck does its part, this will be on a garage floor. I am not sure I would want to try it on raised floor =:0

I really enjoy my Jacobs chuck, and will probably end up buying another one to live on a 3MT arbor - later.

[snip] Thanks!
True, but it still has been useful at times.

It is actually pretty good - one of the best I have seen on a Chinese machine.

I believe that to be excellent advice. It sounds very familiar from my earlier research on this purchase. Given what the IRS is going to do to me in a few weeks, it will have to wait. I almost didn't buy the lathe to be honest.

Sounds like good practice.

It worked very nicely once before. Making pairs of these things, I clamped the ends together and took light cuts. In fairness, those were a little shorter than the parts for the current job.

To clarify, I would bring the stop into contact with the lower end of the first cut, tighten, and then move the part, right? My usual stops would probably trick me; they work nicely, but always seem to move a little when tightened - not a problem the way I use them. However, a v-block and a parallel or something held in place with clamps should do it.

Not long ago I saw a picture of a Swedish(??) vertical/horizontal mill. Interesting looking thing.
THANKS!!
Bill
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    Good!
    If you have a spare on hand, you are less likely to need it. :-)

    I had help from the driver sliding it into the pickup (3/4 ton, 4WD), and help from a friend an my wife when sliding it down the ramp into the garage. The friend helped me pull it, and my wife "tailed" on a line looped several times through a carabiner clip so she did not need much pull to control the motion of the lathe down the ramp.

    A pry-bar plus a length of 2x4 acting as a longer pry-bar. But it was easier to get hooked into the upper layer of the pallet for the first motion.
    I would have used the engine hoist from the start for unloading from the pickup -- except that I had to unload the pickup to drive over to a friend's place to borrow the engine hoist. I've since acquired my own. :-)

    Good.
    It had to be lifted to unbolt the pallet. Once it was in the air, the choices were to lower it onto the legs of the hoist (counter productive) or onto cribbing so the hoist could be removed.

    We had no choice -- since the work needed to remove not only that room's raised floor, but the one before it through which it came would have been a major problem -- especially with the conduit and plumbing below the floor. At least there was a nice long ramp before the first room which would serve as the first test of whether it would support what was being moved.

    Wait until you've done a few projects with the Rohm keyless chuck. (I do presume that the Rohm is keyless and the Jacobs is keyed, though both make both styles. And I have a nice Jacobs keyless on my drill press (which came with a 5/8" or 3/4" clone of a Jacobs chuck -- always too big for metalworking with the slowest speed available from the spindle. :-)

    For that matter, I learned a lot from the manual for my Unimat SL-1000, including tricks which I have not seen documented in manuals for larger machines. :-)

    Hmm ... a significant improvement from one for the Jet from around 1980-85.

    O.K. So keep your eyes open for sales for the Phase-II wedge style set. I got mine from such a sale -- choosing to pay more for the wedge style over the piston style.
    [ ... ]

    If you had two side by side, and firmly clamped that way, it would be a lot better than one at a time.

    I would just make a cut through a bit over half of the height of each one not worrying about the end stop then. Then rotate one piece 90 degrees, so there is both a top and a bottom section machined together. Set the stop to press on a bottom section of the machined area, lock it, and then move the X-axis to bring the edge of the end mill just barely contact with the end. IIRC, cigarette rolling papers are supposed to be good for this -- moisten one, and stick it on the end of the machined surface, and bring the X-axis in until the endmill just whisks the paper away -- you are then within 0.001".
    Now -- lock the X-axis, stop the spindle, crank the Y-axis clear in such a direction so you will be doing conventional milling not climb milling when you bring the mill back into contact, loosen the vise, and rotate the workpiece so the long un-milled part is on top and the long machined part is on the bottom in contact with the work stop. Tighten the vise, mill through the un-machined work (with a little overlap), loosen the vise, crank the Y-axis back to where it was before, and clamp the next half-done workpiece against the stop. Repeat until all are done on that end. Then carefully cut to final length on one side of the other end of all parts (perhaps setting the stop at the already milled in now if all are to be the same length), and machine each one top flip bottom and on to the next.

    Yes -- those are nice machines, and I wish that I had one, and sufficient electric power to run one properly.

    You're welcome.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Don,

My thinking exactly, sir! :)

I thought about a truck/truck transfer, but will probably go the ground and hoist route.

Dumb question: any trick to keeping the pull from simply tearing apart the pallet? One thought I had was a 2x4 shoved in the pallet and a sling over it up to the hoist - that should get it going, assuming the wood can take it.

Good to know. At the risk of appearing to cross-examine (in reality I simply want to understand to get the most out of your helpful descriptions), unload from the _pickup_??? Would you still have done the ramp transfer, or would you have gone flatbed-ground-hoist?
> except that I had to unload the pickup to drive over

Ok, now I'm starting to think that you would have done the ramp between the two trucks, and then used to hoist from your pickup to the ground. Is that it?

I still do not quite follow (sorry). Unless the idea was to lower onto cribbing to have stable foundation while you unbolted the pallet? I am assuming that you slung the lathe, and the pallet is just along for the ride; one could then unbolt with the whole thing swinging, but it would be very dangerous to do that - the load could fall, or shift and then fall as the pallet does weirdness being partially attached to that lathe. However, I would probably leave the hoist holding some tension on the lathe, just in case all hell broke loose with the pallet while I was unbolting it.

Scary thought, but I get the idea.

Please be careful, as my evil twin is the one who buys all this stuff; I am fairly certain he settled for a keyed chuck :) Humor aside, I might be in for a pleasant surprise, but I was trying to balance price and quality, and the Enco tech suggested the Rohm as a worthy compromise. Worst case, it will become a backup to my Jacobs.

I bought my last Jet machine a couple of years ago. The clincher was when I called them to point out that they had an safety latch that needed to remain in place bolted at one point, and that it would eventually pivot. Nutty me, I thought they would want to know - they didn't care, nor did they seem to even grasp how stupid the design might be, nor that they might want to find somebody who might understand same. Anyway, it *did* fail as I predicted.

Great minds... I fully expect to go that route, I just have to slow down the flow of green stuff out of my wallet for a while. If the Phase-II is anything like the RT they make, it will be very much worth the money. I assume/hope that I will be able to function with the existing post while I fumble my way along with learning what the new toy can do. After I recover from April 15 and brace for the local guys mugging me later in the year, I can start looking for sales.

That is what I did. One of the parts is a singleton, but I would no doubt give it a shorter peer to help stabilize it. The other reason to cut two at a time was that I wanted them to be the same length, whatever that turned out to be. Now that I think about it, if I put that improvised stop in the center, it should be able to work for both tubes, allowing me to the lengths the same - I think :)

Dumb question: after the first cut puts the machined surface right at the edge of the tool, right? Would not a stop set against it (firm but not deformed) be in just the right place w/o moving the table? I need to read it a few more times, but you appear to have added a step. What does that fix?
Thanks!
Bill
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    [ ... ]

    As any good driver should. I guess that a lowboy flatbed would allow a bit more speed, but still not a good idea.
    [ ... ]

    :-)
    [ ... ]

    Great! I know that Rhom is good based on what I have (the 3/8" one). Not sure who made our live center, but hopefully that is also a good one.
    [ ... ]

    In my case, the slot for the tang is horizontal -- with access via a pair of milled slots to allow a drift key to be used to pop things out at need.

    Good -- but noisy. :-)

    Hmm ... is this their version of the 4x6 horizontal/vertical bandsaw? I've got the MSC version and the prop to hold it in the vertical position is metal and good and solid.

    O.K. I was assuming that the height of the endmill would be the same for both passes -- so anything which the stop could be set to in the initial orientation would be within reach of the endmill in the second orientation.

    O.K. A solid block which bolts down with a T-stud followed by adjusting a threaded rod to contact, and tightening a locknut to keep it there would probably have little deformation -- unless you crank too hard on the rod before locknuting it. There may still be a 0.001" to 0.002" offset unless you have a constant pressure against the stop each time. Hmm -- or mount a dial indicator to measure the end of the workpiece, zero it, and withdraw the contact during machining.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:08:56 -0400, Bill Schwab

======================Welcome to the wonderful world of machining!
A word of advice -- before you power up your lathe, disassembly it as far as you dare, clean and relube. Asian machine tools are infamous for coming complete with foundry sand. I suggest using paint [*NOT* lacquer] thinner to clean with. This is "varsol." ======================>Overlapping sales and the likelihood of more weakening of the dollar

Start with the cheap stuff first. one free source is http://www.niumotorsports.com/Learn/SAE/Lath.pdf
Lindsay Books has reprints that are ideal for the home/hobby shop machinist. One of the first I suggest is by Milne from the mid to late 40s as this gives a good overview of the "total" manual machine shop. http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/milne/index.html These following are all reprints of the 1940s-1950s manuals that came with the home/hobby shop lathes. (I am showing a number of sources, most are available at Lindsay] http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID94 http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks7/regal/index.html (check out the Lindsay and other sites for other books) ------------ The two volumes of Moltrecht will give you a more detailed overview of the manual machining process than Milne. http://www.normas.com/INDLPR/pages/11267.html http://www.normas.com/INDLPR/pages/11321.html ------------- Edwards will be very valuable as a continuing lathe reference https://www.hansergardner.com/dp/hgweb/detail.cfm?isbn=1%2D56990%2D340%2D9%20%20 ------------- Machinery's handbook is a basic reference. The older editions [eBay] are both cheaper and have material more suitable for the home/hoby ship machinist http://www.industrialpress.com/en/MachinerysHandbook/default.aspx ------------------ Browse http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/machining_books.htm (and try to not spend all your money on books...)

------------------------------ Magic solution is a 4 jaw chuck, a steady rest and a "cathead" An old fashioned but very useful tool. You will need a "bridge" made out of an old hacksaw blade to center the tube with your drop indicator. http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm [see cathead about 1/2 down page for picture -- you will more than likely have to make this tool from a short section of pipe and 8 screws.] No 4 jaw chuck? Use a face plate with an angle plate or piece of angle iron. ------- The older lathe books will have details on the bridge and pump staffs/wigglers. The work arounds and hints are one of the reasons the reprints are so valuable. Click on http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks2/tsotm/index.html for even more hints. =============>

Feel free to email me direct.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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George,
I won't even try to put comments inline: there's too much great stuff in your reply to do it justice. I will check out the references. At first glance, the cathead is pretty much what I thought might be needed. AFAIK, the machine comes with 3- and 4-jaw chucks.
You mention disassembly for cleaning, and you are not the first to mention casting sand. That is a scary thought for a splash-lubricated head stock! How far would you go? I recognize that you would probably be in a position to go farther than I should be willing to go, so perhaps I should ask what you would NOT touch???
With respect to moving the machine, what about the motor? Removing it might make it a little easier to handle, and if you want me to take it off for cleaning, perhaps I should get a head start??
Thanks!
Bill
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Bill, I can tell you that about 1 year ago my younger brother took delivery of the same lathe (12 x 26 gap bed) from HF at their store about 20 miles away. He got it on a Friday night and after work, he and I took it off of his truck by hand... We did it by taking it apart. The motor, the ways, the head stock, etc. It was still very heavy, but us two 40 year old lads did it, but it was heavy.
What followed next was a full on disassembly of all parts of that machine. Every part was taken apart, cleaned a polished. It took about 4 weekends worth of work. We used solvents etc. It was surprising, to say the least, how much grit was in the machine, the head stock being the worst. All told, we measured just under 3/4's of a cup of grit. What we did was to filter all the solvents and old oils etc and collect the grit.... My guess is that the lathe would not have run for a month, if we had left all of that crud in and on the machine. We also were able to correct a couple of gears that were not aligned so great.
A year latter, with a fair amount of use now, the lathe is still running strong and the original tolerances are holding just fine. I would consider this lathe to be more of a lathe kit, then a finished product, ready to run!!!! But once its all cleaned up and put back together, WOW is it nice. Never crashed a tool, never had an issue of any type. All told a great lathe.
bob

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Bob,

[snip]
Are you two the types who rebuild Jaguar engines for fun? :) I'm at the replace the water pump level. Any special tools required? It looks like I would want to finally get a pair of c-clip pliers. Otherwise I'm guessing it's the usual stuff any good tool freak will have on hand. Did you find any torque specs? Do you have any photos of the re-assembly?
Thanks,
Bill
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No, we don't have a jag.... Chevy and Pontiac here.... Yea, we do go a little deep sometimes, but this thing wasn't that bad. Not like an engine rebuild or anything.
My brother did take lots of pictures and if your really interested, I can get him to load them on his ftp site.
no real special tools, a bench buffer was used to really clean out the gears and get the edge burrs off.
Torque was not really a concern as some of the nuts and bolts were only finger tight... we just watched what we were doing and tried to use common sense.
we did use lots of lube (I don't remember what it was, but he does I am sure) and changed the head oil a couple of times, in short order after a self described break in period. This lathe has a sight glass for oil level and since we got the insides really clean the glass has stayed clean a readable. The oil color has not changed at all.
Like I said before, this is a great lathe!!! but consider it a lathe kit as it comes from the factory!!!!!!!!
bob

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Bob,

I knew it :) My beat up '96 F-150 that I bought a couple of years ago is less beat up than it was - mostly by my hand, so I can no longer claim to be a complete wimp. But as Dirty Harry said "A man's got to know his limitations."

Whether or not I decide to tear it down, I would greatly enjoy seeing the pictures, and I am probably not alone.

That's probably just a new wheel for my grinder. From the diagrams, I'd blow for a proper c-clip tool.

That would be good to know. I am aware that people slather engine parts with assembly lube - I have yet to get that far into one.
> and changed the head oil a couple of times, in short order after a

The manual refers to one too - a certain number of hours below a specified speed.
Thanks!
Bill
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    [ ... ]

    From what I have read, the gear-head machines have been made with more attention to such matters than the belt-driven ones from the same source -- and the larger lathes better made than the smaller ones. All that extra money pays for more than just more cast iron. :-)
    I would suggest taking apart and checking the compound and the cross slide. If those are well done, you probably have pretty good chances with the rest. Maybe take apart and check the tailstock as well.
    Taking apart the gear-head headstock to sufficient level of detail is a major undertaking.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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don, I agree that taking the headstock apart was very hard, but the amount of grit we found warranted the work. The biggest culprit was that the factory had painted over, on the inside, pockets of grit. Once the paint was touched at all, it opened up and let the grit go. I would think that by just running the lathe, that the painted in grit pockets would have released and caused issues. Just my opinion as a sort of owner ( I go and use the Big lathe just about every weekend, when my little atlas wont do the job).
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    Ouch! I had not read reports of grit in the gearhead versions of the lathe until a couple of articles after I posted the one to which you just replied. Had I read that first, I obviously would not have posted it as it sat.

    O.K. No certainty whether the paint would have released the grit without testing it -- which is rather an expensive test if it fails.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Don,

FWIW, I have gotten to know one of the Enco techs, and he seems to think the lathe I bought is a good one. I will ask him about this, but suspect he will agree with you.

That seems reasonable.

I feared as much. Is there a good compromise: open a panel and look for signs of trouble?
Bill
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