Mosin Nagant

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not more than once.

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

And it tells the other side when its empty.

Gunner

I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious, even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long guns.)

Enjoy, DoN.

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50 people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle, and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of time to come and get you.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb (jdslocombatgmail)

Aside from the rear sight being unnecessarily complicated, the Garand couldn't take nearly as much combat abuse and keep firing. If your ammo supply came in belts or 5 round clips, as it might, you had a single shot rifle.

David

[ ... ]

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not yet empty?

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the action?

Thanks, DoN.

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

8 round en-bloc clip, loading through the top. It's a true clip, not a magazine or charger. Faster to shove it in than to talk about it. Bolt locks open at the last shot, closes after the new clip latches in. Dubs got 'M1 thumb' if they didn't know how to load it. Hi-tech for the '20s when it was developed. Given that most opponents were still using bolt guns with 5 shot magazines and stripper clips, I wouldn't have felt under-gunned. It would have been a lot more interesting if it had been adopted in the ,276 Pedersen it was originally designed for. 10 shots, lighter, maybe shorter. "Dugout Doug" had the last word on that, so .30 cal.

Stan

Gunner

I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)

Pete Keillor on Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12

-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or reload a fresh magazine.

"En Bloc" clip. Held eight rounds, the whole assembly was loaded from the top. Quick, easy - but you could not "top off" the load. And when the last round was fired, the "clip" made a little "ting" sound as it is ejects from the rifle. Time to grab another clip and insert the whole thing. The advantage to the detachable box magazine,is that you can detach it, "top off" and reload, giving you ten rounds plus the one in the chamber. And, with practice, you can get fast at swapping out magazines.

If they lived that long.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it to fire.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

Gunner

I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)

Not seeing the quoted post, so responding here.

Do us a favor. Get a Lee Enfield. Fill the bore up with mud and bend the barrel. Now shoot it. Get back to us when you get out of the hospital.

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

So what good does that do them? You are conflating an infantry battle with home defense.

The Garand uses a clip, not a detachable magazine. You push the clip with 8 rounds down into the top then close the bolt. When it's empty it tosses the clip up in the air and makes a little noise. If you're in a situation where you really think that that would be disastrous, you load it without the clip (it doesn't _need_ the clip, it's just a fast way to get 8 rounds into it).

This was addressed in the M-14 which uses a detachable box magazine.

Besides, the scream when it bites your thumb will be more evidence that it's been empty than the ting from the clip ejecting :)

Not a stripper.

Here's a loaded clip:

Here's what happens after the last round fires--the black object above the shooter's head is the clip .

You have actual examples of Enfields and Garands undergoing the same "combat abuse" side by side and the Enfield working and the Garand not?

One can make the same argument against the Enfield. The Garand doesn't _need_ the clip, it's just more convenient to load it that way. In any case, the clips are easily reloadable.

The Garand used/uses a clip, for want of a better word, that holds 8 rounds in a double column. The clip and cartridges are loaded en block into the top of the open action. Pressing the clip into the action releases the bolt to go into battery stripping the first cartridge from the clip and into the chamber. After 8 rounds are fired the action ejects the empty clip and the bolt stays open. Pressing another loaded clip into the action causes the bolt to go closed, stripping the first round from the strip, and so on.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb (jdslocombatgmail)

It is not a stripper clip. The Garand clip, viewed from the top, is a sort of "U" shaped sheetmetal device that enfolds the 8 cartridges and the cartridges and clip are simply shoved into the top of the action and lock in place when the reach the bottom of the magazine well. At the same time this releases the bolt to go into battery stripping the first round from the clip.

As the rifle won't function without the clip in place so when shooting rapid fire strings in a rifle match, that require a 10 round string, a clip and two loose rounds are loaded in the receiver.

Frankly I doubt that as this as it would really require a one on one situation in nearly silent conditions.

However, the Armory did experiment with plastic clips in WW II, for whatever reason, but this appear not to have not been pursued.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb (jdslocombatgmail)

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click, click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun. Assuming you have an "other gun". What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.

tschus pyotr

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no question that it's time to reload.

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you won't get another.

Get a Garand. Repeat the test. Have your widow notify the group.

This means what exactly? Or are you desperately seeking something to be right about?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

I tossed that one in as a laugher for those who actually do know the Garand.

Faster? Hardly.

Gunner

I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)

Several. Ill have to find the links for you.

The Garand....without the clip...becomes a single shot.

Blink blink

Gunner

I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)