"J. Clarke" on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
That it does.
That maybe true. But one thing which has been documented over the course of centuries - the number of times a man may pull on a trigger and have the gun not fire, and him not notice. I believe a record of sorts was set during the Battle of Gettysburg, where one rifle was recovered with eleven rounds loaded in the barrel. The assumption has been made that he didn't put the percussion cap on the nipple, and never noticed that the rifle didn't go "boom" when he pulled the trigger.
True indeed. On the other hand...refilling the magazine with a couple rounds is nearly impossible.
Very true.
I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)
O.K. Looking at that shows that it is quite different from the stripper clips used by either the '98 Mauser or the SKS, which you would toss (or save) as soon as you thumbed the stack of cartridges into the permanent magazine -- and big enough to make a significant noise, too.
Yes, I can see how that would be a problem in combat.
I don't know about the Garand, but the 1911A1 locks the slide back when the magazine is empty, so you won't even get that first click until you either release the slide lock or swap in a new magazine and release the slide lock (which makes more sense, since the first one won't lock up until it *is* empty. :-)
That slide locked open makes it just that much quicker to get the first round chambered from the new magazine.
that is true, and they did reload magazines on the Garand. If you get an old Garand with dimples on the stock, it was either in combat or used by a combat veteran. they banged the clip against the stock to make sure all the rounds were seated in the magazine.
As others have mentioned...its not all that bad..or noticable in most combat applications, but its hardly as Marvelous as they would have you believe.
Rapid fire is great. Aimed fire is even better.
Gunner
I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)
Later versions of military arms using removable magazines generally got banged on the helmet.
Gunner
I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)
"DoN. Nichols" on 13 Oct 2010 01:32:04 GMT typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
True - but I've been so focused on shooting, that I didn't really notice the slide was locked back till I pulled the trigger - "hu-waah? Oh! reload time." And insufficient grease in a Browning 9mm, lets you practice clearing jams, too.
Probably not now and never has been. The battle of Aquincourt, for example, where victory was attributed to the English long bow, was primarily a matter of volley fire by massed archers at long range. During American Civil War (I believe the first example of rifled arms used as primary weapons) at the Battle of First Bull Run it has been estimated that between 8,000 and 10,000 rounds were fired for every soldier killed or wounded. In more modern times the Australians reporting on the Battle of Longtan stated that the entire battle took place in an area approximately the size of two football fields, an estimated 400,000 rounds of small arms ammunition (combined both sides) was expanded as well as 3,500 rounds of artillery. The artillery fired nearly continuously for 5 hours, equal to approximately 30 bullets per sq. yd. and one shell per 4 sq. yd. over the entire battle field. Total estimated casualties, killed and wounded, (Total both sides) was
1830. A minimum of 218 rounds of small arms ammunition expended per casualty, assuming some causalities due to artillery fire.
I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)
Odd that our militaries have so much luck with small unit combat against large numbers of enemy forces then, eh wot?
But then...they no longer stand in long lines and fire volleys at each other.
Imagine that!
Gunner
I am the Sword of my Family and the Shield of my Nation. If sent, I will crush everything you have built, burn everything you love, and kill every one of you. (Hebrew quote)
Gunner Asch on Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:52:08 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Let me check my notes - ah "Patience" Yeah, yeah, how long will that take? What is the old saying "slow is sure; Sure is fast." I'm working on sure.
Don't I know it. There is a story of a Shaolin monk, who was told to "take a pot of water and slap the water out of the pot". Every dang day. After a year, he goes home to visit family, and while there is asked a question, and responds "I am learning nothing" and slaps the table. Which breaks. "Wax on, wax off" etc, and so on.
Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
The British taught "How to Rapidly fire an Enfield rifle" to such an extent, that in the open days of the First World War, the Germans thought the Brits had more machine guns, due to the volume of fire they were receiving. If memory serves,the record is held by a British Sergeant Major, who put 60 round into the target in sixty seconds. Which obviously meant he worked a bolt sixty times, plus swapped out magazines five times.
Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the shooter. And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. In The Great War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.
+0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Actually it has been. (Accurate Aimed Fire). That it often wasn't used, and that it is often difficult to get soldiers to aim at another human being, are a drawback. I recall reading of a test the Imperial Austrian Army performed, where it had a battalion line up and fire at a large canvas with human sized targets on it, to represent an enemy unit. Sixty percent hits. But later, that same unit got over run because it couldn't hit the enemy soldiers. Targets are not the same as people. With the development of firearms, and more importantly the magazine, battle rifles became also a big noise maker. A way of saying "I'm here, I'm bad, don't mess with me." while still keeping a round available if something should show up.
If memory serves, the US Army in Vietnam expended around fifty thousand rounds for every confirmed kill. Considering the number of machine guns, mini guns, "mad minutes", and "covering fire" - I'm not surprised. "Recon by fire" makes the shooter feel better, but doesn't necessarily hurt the enemy. OTOH, it isn't the one with your name on it - but the one addressed "Occupant" or "To Whom It May Concern" that you need to worry about.
The following is from Wiki but was taken from a US Army report which studied WW I, II casualties:
Following the end of World War II, the U.S. Army conducted a number of studies of what happened in the war and how it was actually fought. Several things were learned which applied directly to personal weapon design. Perhaps most important, research found that most combat casualties caused by small-arms fire took place at short range. So the long range and accuracy of the standard rifle was, in a real sense, wasted. Second, the research found that aiming was not a major factor in causing casualties. Instead, the number one predictor of casualties was the total number of bullets fired.[16] Third, psychological studies found that many riflemen (as much as 2/3) never fired their weapons at the enemy. By contrast, those soldiers equipped with rapid-fire weapons (submachine guns and the early assault rifles) were far more likely to actually use their weapons in battle.[17] This combination of factors led to the conclusion that a fairly short-range weapon capable of rapid fire would be the most effective general purpose weapon for infantry.
Not really, the Enfield could be easily loaded with loose rounds.
way. In any
Every Garand I've fired needed the clip if you were going to fire more than one round at a time. The clips are easily reloadable only if you have them.
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