OT- More Killed in California Than in War in Iraq!

First off, no one better exemplifies that idea than you do. You are the one that posted the comparison between murders in California and war deaths in Iraq. That was stupid. Clearly, you believed there was some cause for comparison. And your implication that it's less dangerous to be a trooper in Iraq than it is to live in California has been debunked. So instead of acknowledging your error instead you engage in a silly exercise in statistics to try to make the point that the number of Americans killed in Iraq is really nothing to be concerned about, being so small and all. Your shit is very weak!

Since you are a vaunted historian you should know that in previous conflicts the reports of losses has always been reported as casualties, not simply the dead. For example, in the battle of Iwo Jima the casualties were nearly

30,000 on our side. Deaths were only around 6,900, but that is not how it was reported. The reports are of casualties; meaning dead, wounded, and missing. Now, the Bush administration only reports the dead in their propaganda effort to minimize the actual losses. When you use the standard measure of casualties in the Iraq war for the US it is between 20 and 40 thousand. In reality, the number of casualties the US has suffered in the war is substantial. Especially when you consider that due to improved medical care all kinds of people that would have died in other wars have survived. However, while they are not dead they are horribly maimed. The number of men who have lost limbs and have received grievous head injuries in this war is far greater than ever before. So, as much as Gunner would like to make the price we are paying in Iraq with the lives and bodies of our troops seem small, the truth is a lot different that what he pretends it is.

In his attempt to make Bush look good Gunner can trivialize the death of our troops all he wants. He can make excuses all day long why it is okay. He can compare statistics and show how insignificant their deaths really are. That is all well and good. But the fact remains, some Americans are paying a high price for Bush's miscalculations. They are paying with their children's lives and to them the loss isn't trivial. Right wingers like Gunner like to think of themselves as patriots, but as they minimize the losses others have suffered while continuing to support the interventions in the affairs of other sovereign nations, it's plain to see they are anything but patriotic. They're willing to keep the war going year after year as long as it's other people who are paying for it. And all so the Gunners of the world can say "we're winning".

Hawke

Reply to
Hawke
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I wasn't trying to trivialize his contributions. Nor those of his sons.

By "lucky" I meant, he was fortunate to be personally present when that phase of US history was finally and incontrovertably finished.

Shelby Foote said that any examination of america as a country had to include the effects of the civil war. I would go further and state that waging, and winning ww2 was an equally defining event for us as a country.

Once the surrender has happened, life can go forward again. This has not, and will not happen in the middle east for quite some time, if ever.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Er Jim, history records that the surrender documents acknowledge the Japanese acceptance of the Allies terms..

My relative was part of the British contingent at the surrender, the Soviet Union, Canada, China, France, the Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand, like the US, had representatives present that signed the surrender documents.

Tom

Reply to
Tom

Your opinion is noted.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Reply to
Gunner Asch

Get this one

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Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Reply to
Gunner Asch

There is more than 1 country in the Axis this time..as before. Did we pack up and go home when Germany was defeated, leaving the Nips to continue?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Reply to
Gunner Asch

Nope. That was my exact point. Italy, Germany, Japan. We waged and won a war on two fronts (more really) and had the surrenders in hand in less time than has passed between 9/11 and now.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Ah...Jim...we also didnt have the Left fighting us tooth and nail, every step of the way, and we had a universal draft, and unlimited resources. And you might take a look at the time line between 9-11 and the first military action, and that of 12-7 and the first military action.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Reply to
Gunner Asch

You can spin this in any variety of ways, but the facts remain unchallenged. And the clock is still running on this. We defeated germany and japan, yet you try to tell me that the reason we're in a quagmire in iraq is because of dissent in the US??

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

I knew there had to be a way for the lack of success in Iraq to be the fault of the Democrats. Even though the whole government is controlled and run by Republicans any time anything gets fouled up somehow it's still the Democrat's fault. At least that's the way right wingers see it. I have to admit I have never seen a group of folks like these Republicans that take credit for every single thing they can but accepts absolutely no responsibility whatsoever when things go wrong. I have to hand it to the Republicans, in this regard they have no equals. Scumbags par excellance.

Hawke

Reply to
Hawke

What, are you kidding? Did you expect him to say it was the Republicans fault? No way, it's always somebody else's fault when there is a screw up. That's standard procedure for them.

Hawke

Reply to
Hawke

No, ignoring history is spin.

You're like the pickpocket who bumps you or squirts web cites all over your jacket - while dipping the wallet out.

My comments above are simply and plainly true. Facts that you can dance around - but you cannot change. I hope that's as infuriating to you, as our country's leadership is to me.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

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