Starvation Wages

Yes there is. It expands to fit the time available. Whether it produces anything, or pays anything,

Meantime, the GINI coefficient keeps climbing, almost constantly since

1968, and now higher than at any time since at least 1947.

It's not a healthy indicator, but this is a subject you'll have to discuss without me. I have work to do.

Reply to
Ed Huntress
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Same here.

Under old economic theories, this was not a problem. The work week would just keep getting shorter.

Today people call that "socialism," even though it has nothing to do with government ownership.

It's a vexing issue that I'm sure some of the denizens here have all figured out. d8-)

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Why do a business want to employ a "no longer economically useful worker" for reduced hours?

It is a vexing issue that I have not figured out, except for a determination to be ireplaceable by computers, for me and for my kids.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus27947

The "lump of labor" issue deals well with increases in labor supply and with a historical consequence of technological changes affecting productivity. But it's contradicted by the increasing GINI coefficient and the stagnation of middle-class wages and salaries. Something is changing.

There is a hollowing-out of the middle class going on. The arguments against the "lump of labor fallacy" say that shouldn't happen.

As Tom says, the goal is to take the "art" out of production. And as Iggy says, there are more middle-class jobs that can be handled by computers.

We've seen some of the consequences already. There simply are no compensating numbers of new jobs in the middle range of skill and income, even though there are plenty of jobs at the bottom end, and a few more at the top.

Reply to
Ed Huntress

The idea was based on historical experience with incremental advances in production technology. In most cases, it just meant that one worker could produce more. Now it often means that you don't need a worker at all. For that, one needs a new theory.

Reply to
Ed Huntress

One simply looks at Pepsi and Coke to see how far automation can be carried. "The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state. Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name. The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy, and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Reply to
Gunner Asch

You found a niche that you fit into. Those niches are getting to be smaller and smaller in numbers.

Which is why so many of my clients have retired out of California, taking a few machines with them to their new digs in Aridzona and Idaho and making high dollar custom medical parts and gun parts working in a small home shop on their acreage and sleeping well every night..because when they sold out in California..they made enough money to pay cash for everything when they moved and have money in the bank.

I wish my niche hadnt started to fold...Im pretty good at what I do.

Shrug

Gunner

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state. Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name. The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy, and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Reply to
Gunner Asch

Why haven't you done that? Oh yeah, because you're a no talent full of shit moron.

Your niche is posting lies to Usenet. It doesn't show any signs of folding.

No, you're not. Making fun of your ridiculous lies is easy.

Reply to
test

Exactly. And "more education" and "job retraining" is often not the answer. Let's say that you have a person of modest abilities, who was replaced by a computer. Even though you could teach that person a new skill, you could teach a computer a new skill as well, so the computer wins anyway.

I do not have any solutions, but I do have apprehension.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus27947

I'm not sure that is a universal truth. I've lived in several foreign countries where there simply aren't jobs for everyone.

Reply to
John B.

Correct. Smaller and smaller in number, as time goes on. It is a slow process, but inevitable.

I am not convinced that making custom gun parts is a good business. Too many people wanting to be in that.

Making custom medical parts, may be indeed a winner for a while.

I spend nights worrying about this stuff and related issues.

There is no place to hide.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus27947

Ayup. Same with farmers, boot makers, doctors etc etc.

Once they get snugged into their niche...the others are second place winners

No..there certainly isnt. And its NOT going to get any better any time soon. The Left has cut the foundation from under this nation and the already tottering structure is about ready to collapse.

One hopes you have enough land to grow crops on..you may need it before long.

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state. Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name. The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy, and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Reply to
Gunner Asch

Go get and read a copy of _Who Moved My Cheese?_ It's time to adapt, old buddy. Find (or CREATE!) another niche and fill it.

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$0.01 + $3.99 s/h, or see your local library.

I'm working on my 4th major career change now, too. (auto mech->QA->elec/comp/web tech->handyman->cnc mfg) I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Likewize. There may be WORK for everyone, but not jobs. Work for no pay or gain is not a job. Lots of available "work" but very few "jobs" in Burkina Faso, Zambia, and other poor third world countries.

The problem is, in a society where everyone wants a "job" a lot of the "work" that needs to be done never gets done.

Volunteer "work" gives a man purpose, even if it dies not provide him any gain..

Someone who has proved they are capable of and not afraid of "work" often gets a "job" out of it. The lazy one who sits around waiting for a "job" but does no "work" can be easily overlooked.

Reply to
clare

Its not just in foreign countries. Far too many of us are busting our ass finding work..and then its so damned little it barely covers the fuel to go to that work.

Ah but if the Shining Times ever return......!!

Shrug

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state. Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name. The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy, and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Reply to
Gunner Asch

Oh I agree...just not for my operation. That's the trouble with a lot of my processes, there just isn't the volume to crack the nut.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

When nanites make and do everything, people can do what they always wanted to do...sit in front of the tube and vege-out 24/7 from 6th grade on.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Ever since I was very young, wheel brushes were wound by hand. In the early 70's, one legendary winder operator made $350 per week in bonus over and above his salary. That was good money back then. Today, a good winder will make 1/5 as many parts even though I've raised the bonus and lowered the bonus threshold. People just won't do more than they have to in order not to get fired. THAT'S why I automated the production and eliminated the "Art" factor. I accept the fact that it's a different time now, never to go back to the old ways. AND, the new ways are better...but not for jobs. I wonder...more and more people and less and less manufacturing jobs. Agriculture is the same, mining and oil is the same. Wealth creation does not rely on large numbers of people anymore and the skill set if way different. Could that be why wealth is being more and more concentrated?

Reply to
Tom Gardner

I remember that book! Did you ever read "The Goal"? I learned a lot from that simple book.

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Reply to
Tom Gardner

This discussion has been about wages, and finding good jobs is getting more and more dificult. Computers eliminate jobs in two ways. One is where th e computer does the work that used to be done by a human. The other is whe re the computer increases the productivity. An example of this is the Draf tman. A draftman is now much more productive than when drawings were made o n vellum using ink. I have no good solution for finding good jobs, except to say that one needs to constantly work at staying current in your field. I had a lot of experience with that as the estimate is that half of what a n electrical engineer knows is obsolete every seven years. So I had to con stantly learn in order not to become obsolete.

But wages are only part of getting by. The other part is saving and invest ing. Pretty much all my working life, I spent less then what I made and in vested that money. So now I have been retired for fifteen years and the l argest part of my income comes not from pensions or Social Security. But f rom dividends and the " Required Minimum Distributions " from my IRA's. So my solution to starvation wages is income not based on wages.

Dan

Now for the metalworking part of this post. I managed to disassemble my Mi ll/Drill into pieces I could cope with and move the parts down the stairs t o the basement. Still need to beef up the stand and move it to the baseme nt. The garage is just too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer.

In surfing the net, I found this website that has both electronics and meta lworking info.

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Dan

Reply to
dcaster

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