Cool. Don't know why others thought it was so bad. :(
dennis in nca
Cool. Don't know why others thought it was so bad. :(
dennis in nca
And you feel, somehow, that would get us back on equal footing with India or China? Or can you PROVE your statement has ANY validity? I don't think so.
dennis in nca
Note to self: Warn M Ron of people who have apparent facination with animal rectums.
Oops, did I accidentally post that?
dennis in nca
When a contract is negotiated both parties put their issues on the table; wages, overtime, vacation pay, etc. etc. and longitivity. If one side feels strongly about an item then they must cede another the other side feels stronly about. The fact that older workers remain employed in a certain manner means something else was given-up to achieve this. Ask your old boss if this isn't the case.
Not your intelligence but your lack of factual data involved in this discussion. Without this it's ONLY your opinion you're discussing, not the facts. Sorry you were offended.
dennis in nca
Anything in those classes about "a living wage?" Not in the textbooks today, I'll bet. And NO, that is not "added value."
Sorry. Too self centered to reply to.
Not an insult. Just a suggestion to read a book about unions and etc. Your choice.
Gee, I figured you'd be calling me a communist and all the time you were worried I'd be calling you a facist. In my book that's funny. Sorry I didn't explain it all earlier.
dennis in nca
Oh! Contraire!
It is, in fact, impossible to respond to, for it's the truth------although often disputed by those that seem to feel the world owes others a living.
You can agree, or not, that doesn't change the fact that a person should earn his/her way in life----it should not come at the expense of others. Those of us that live by that credo avoid organizations that promote deadbeats that feel otherwise.
Harold
Chuckle!
Never happen. I never did business with the devil! :-)
Dennis------I worked for myself for almost my entire life. I chose to do that to avoid working with (1) unions (2) stupid F'ing morons that think they're clever, but aren't. Example? My last place of employment was in a shop that was owned by 9 guys, all of which worked there in some capacity, anywhere from running the machines to inspection, shop foreman, or the office. You might say, in a sense, they were a "union" of sorts. No, the place was not organized-----just run by a bunch of people that couldn't agree on anything. I was told on a few occasions to do the same thing 9 different ways, if you get my drift. I ran my shop for 16 years and was out of work three times in that period of time, the longest stretch for less than 24 hours. I relied on no one for making decisions------I relied on outside sources only for processing that had to be certified. I am, such as I am, a self made man.
At my last place of employment, the one owned by 9 guys, they chose me to run their small precision work, for that's what I do best. I found the inspector re-cutting class three threads with a die because they wouldn't fit a go gauge for a class 2-----(they had been properly cut and gauged, using the three wire method). I was told to cut another thread undersized because the moron in question didn't understand threads properly. It went on and on, and was the straw that broke the camel's back. These experiences were instrumental in me starting my own small shop, where I could turn out the work I did so well, without "clever" people screwing it up for me at every turn.
I've always had enough moxey to pull my share of the load, and it was pulled far better without instruction from others. I'm a damned good self starter and worker. Left to my own devices, I am a very productive individual that has worked for his pay, and has not placed demands on society that were unreasonable. I never hid behind a union, for I felt no need. From this, if you can't understand that I had no need for one, I'm sorry for you. You can glean from my comments that you have, indeed, missed out on one complete phase of life, the one that teaches you to stand on your own two feet and be responsible for yourself. I don't envy you for that.
Harold
Why? Are you out, again?
Wrong again, Is that all the union taught you? You sure you're not looking in a mirror? How is it you feel free to invalidate my real life experiences, and make your union dogma the only stance acceptable?
And as long as all you can do is recite union dogma, I agree. There can't be a discussion. The examples I've cited are conveniently rejected by you, in spite of the sites I've provided. Get off your lazy union butt and investigate what I posted. It is no incumbent upon me to do any more than what I've done. If you feel you must invalidate my experiences, it all makes sense----you don't want to hear it-----so if you deny it----it doesn't exist. All a part of the convoluted thinking found in union dogma. You know----the poor victims.
You are of the opinion that without your union, you don't exist. I'm of the opinion that I am important without representation by a potentially fraudulent organization. I am also of the opinion that I am nothing in the scheme of things-----just a guy that can hold his head up high and proclaim that he earned his way ----one that never used terrorist tactics to better his lot in life at the expense of the quality of life for others.
Harold
Not my problem. If your skills don't bring pay that you can live on, then, sorry but, you're either unskilled or have chosen poorly. Learn a new skill if you can, or starve. Not my problem.
Oh but, it's again central to the point. You want me to pay "workers" a fair rate. No problem. Don't dump some old f*ck who doesn't want to work on me and expect me to do the same because, if he doesn't produce, he doesn't deserve it just because he's been around longer than someone who can do the work.
I understand what unions have done for the workers. Last century. This century, they're a drain rather than a gain.
There you go again, you arrogant f*ck.
Well, to be fair, in the year 1910 the unions DID advance the rights of workers and all that. Got anything in the last century other than just protecting lazy people?
There you go again.
Got anything from THIS century?
(you're doing it again)
As opposed to yours, which is less well spoken and even more pointless and repetitive.
I think that Harold is saying, that he'll enter a contract with someone IF they can and will do the job.
Funny, I figured it was because the idiot in question was trying to break killfile rules based on his nym. His story to the contrary changes little, though; regexp is smarter than a wildcard nym.
Yup, and about half as long ago as since the unions actually helped real people who did real work.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
A few days ago. I ask some very simply questions. Instead of the questions being answered. I was bombarded with name calling and ugly visceral comments from a lot of people. That seems to happen when the question can not be answered in an intelligent manner. Again these are very simple questions.
It always seems strange why anyone would chose to make less money,less benefits,less insurance,less retirement,less and less. Just how dumb does it take... Not to be able to realize the benefits of belong to a group that looks out for you and your family
Harold when a non-company that is paying $12.00 an hour and no benefits closes their doors and relocates to Mexico. Is that the Unions fault?
When a ceo of company steals millions from their stock holders and their employees. I lost $78,000.00 when Enron fell apart. Was this the unions fault?
I have found that good people and bad people are in every group,every city and every country. Having a glass that is half full and allowing the rain roll of your back makes life easier.
Be Safe and return to your love ones. Union Millwright Ron
Facts? You've presented no facts------you've presented things as you would like them to appear-----or things that you imagine, to say nothing of union dogma. All the stuff that's supposed to baffle folks with bullshit, secure in the knowledge that it won't be done with brilliance.
I'm talking about real life experiences, which you seem to ignore. I'm entitled to ignore your biased union propaganda-------it's intended to sway the thinking of mindless people. I'd like to think I'm not one of them.
Yes------much of what you've posted is.
There are no beneficial effects------I'm ignoring nothing. What few their might have been come at too great of a price to make them viable. You're not accounting for the negatives that accompany the position of the union.
I'm going to give you one more example, one that is but a year old right now. The huge coal fired power plant north of us, Trans Alta, let go over
600 miners and related workers just a year ago this month. Their average income exceeded $60,000/year. Included in these people were truck drivers, miners, heavy equipment operators, the whole gambit of necessary staff. To insure that the company couldn't be goaded into reopening the mining portion, they sold all of the equipment at auction.Just yesterday, there was an article in the local newspaper that discussed the progress of the employees that lost their jobs. The reoccurring comments, from beginning to end, were the high wages of labor. The union(s) involved had done to these people what they all do----push their wages up until they were no longer competitive -------and their job was lost-----in this case, for ever. When the company closed down the operation, they clearly stated that it was cheaper, by far, to haul coal to Washington from Wyoming than to produce it next door. Do the math, Mr. I'm a union man.
The article in question can be found online @
Mean time, your
should be snipped. You have nothing to say that I haven't heard from all other union people, dennis---and you're certainly not any more convincing. I made it on my own -------I don't need any crooked organization to represent me------to tell me how fast to work,, or slowly, for that matter. The union doesn't sign your check, in case you haven't noticed. Your place of employment does, unless you have something going to which I'm not privy.
You've provided nothing in the way of facts, you've provided your personal opinion, or typical union dogma, and I've read it time and again. It's not that I "don't get it". Fact is, I get it all too well. I simply don't agree with it------no more than I agree with the mormon church. Each has an agenda, and it's not one that is to my advantage. Quite the contrary.
----snip of foolish comments.
I see it all too well.. All the more the tragedy. I fully understand your position. My life experiences dictate you're wrong------and I don't choose to be on the losing team. I am entitled to that. I'm not a union stooge. We have serious philosophical differences, Dennis. I think you're a nice guy, I just don't like the way you feel society owes you, and others, a living. We don't. You must learn to earn one. I mean really earn one, not just show up. Dedicate yourself to a worthy cause instead of thumping on the chest of the union, which is not a necessity for survival. Makes me think of you as being lazy, and unwilling (or unable) to carry your weight.
I join with no one to create a contract. I carry no credit, and I've paid cash for what we have for more than 30 years. If I can't buy it that way, I don't need it.
I had contracts with my suppliers when I was actively pursuing my business. They're called purchase orders. They sent a request for quotation. I bid the work if I was interested. They awarded the contract to the entity best suited for the job at hand. It wasn't necessarily the lowest price. Quality, delivery and reliability played a huge role in determining where the work went. I got my share because I was capable of performing to required specifications, and I dedicated myself to the work, doing my level best to ship quality work, on time. I earned a reputation for quality, on time, and reliability. What could a union possibly have done for me? I did not work within the confines of an organization that had a goal of bleeding every possible dime from the supplier. I didn't want the goose killed that laid eggs------and the goose was concerned about my welfare. They wanted me to survive, to serve them another day. They made that very clear on many occasions.
At no time in the history of my shop did I once picket a supplier, nor did I ever ask for a review of a "contract". I was adult enough to understand the terms and conditions before I entered into relations with each of my customers. I had no designs on changing them, nor the way they did business. All of my customers were non-union----and I was treated with due respect. I fought only with one of them when they were the ones to not honor their own contract by paying beyond the agreed terms, net 30. You're simply going to have to try harder. Nothing your union has to offer comes close to that which I got on my own.
My only complaint is for those that can't understand that the union dogma and agenda is not for everyone. If you think unions are your savior, that they are the ones that sign your check, knock yourself out. Have a good time with your union. However, If you were secure in your union, you'd have no need to hound me, or any other, to join your organization. It's like many of the programs that are being denied funding by the government. Much as some may think they should remain intact, perhaps if they can't stand on their own two feet without being propped up by tax payer's money, they should die, as should the unions. If they can't gather a viable number of members without hounding the hell out of others, isn't there a message in that? I refuse to pick up the tab for a union that, in all appearances, has caused more harm in the last 30 years than it can repair in the next
100. Regardless of what economists say, this I know. We have lost a disproportionate number of jobs in this country because we are unable to compete---both through high wages, and inept workers. There's something drastically wrong with the current picture. I see a bleak future, and a union striving to increase wages isn't helping. It's time for all of us to bite the bullet and try to save what's left.I'm not a union man, I will never be a union man, and I am not willing to entertain the concept of becoming a union man. Their very concept violates the principles by which I have lived.
Thanks dennis. It's winding down, that I can not deny. Good things? We shall see! :-)
Be well
Harold
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:54:56 -0800 (PST) in rec.crafts.metalworking, rigger wrote,
And it would be, of course. Riggers, most likely. Deus ex machina.
Heh! The lack of balance is in your inability to see the truth. What I've stated is what was. It can't be refuted------and is more than evidence enough for me to know to stay the hell away from such organizations. If corporations that found themselves in their midst were wise enough to travel great distances to avoid them, what kind of fool would I have to be to join them when there was no need?
You say the violence wasn't one sided? I assume that should you find yourself in an equal circumstance, that you'd stand around with your hands in your pockets while some dude kicked you senseless because he was trying to exercise his *assumed* rights? I figure if union morons were violent towards those that chose to ignore their pickets, they deserved anything they received in return. These people had many options to exercise, but that doesn't appear to be the union way, does it.?
Part of the rules I have chosen to live by are that I allow others to establish the rules of relationships. Once established, I see to it that they are enforced, to the letter. If I'm treated with kindness and respect, I return the favor. If I'm not, then no holds are barred. Funny how most folks can hand out their version of shit, but don't find it the least bit acceptable when it's returned. Could it be most people have forgotten the golden rule?
Never lose sight of the fact that union people need not picket, nor do they have need to keep others from exercising their rights. ANYTIME you collect your rights at the expense of denying me mine, you can expect I'm not going to take it kindly. While I'm not a fighting man, I can be provoked to violence, and it's not pretty once I've been pushed too far.
Harold
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Ron, maybe we can make this thing civil. I'm willing----but you have to meet half way.
First off, if you recall, I mentioned that this isn't a very good place to tout the virtues of a union. The vast majority of individuals I've known that have talent tend to shy away from such organizations, and this board has a disproportionate number of such people. That's why they're here. They are, for the most part, one hell of a lot brighter than folks found elsewhere, and have excellent judgment and drive. They tend to be well motivated people that recognize opportunities and understand how to capitalize on them to their advantage. They also understand that there are those in their midst that lack those qualities, and see them as an anchor on their progress, assuming they are lumped together in a group. I certainly had those feelings when I was gainfully employed. Sorry if I sound like I'm a bit self centered, but I worked hard, and mastered my trade, I was not just another guy that showed up each day. My place of employment was run very scientifically, right down to time and motion studies, where I was rated over 100% routinely. I realized that if I was to try to sell my talent to others, I could represent myself far better than anyone else could----and being lumped in a group with less capable people certainly wouldn't be to my advantage. In that regard, I'm a very selfish person. I worked hard to achieve my goals----harder than you might understand. I did this while others took a casual approach to their career, and allowed the chips to fall where they may. I had to distance myself from such people if I expected to be recognized.
So then, Ron, you might consider that when you're trying to sell the union to these guys, you're going to wear out your welcome. Your persistence in promoting something that is distasteful to others will never be accepted kindly. Just as I should leave my contempt for the union out of posting, so should you leave out your constant promotion. There are far better issues that we can discuss----even agree on with some luck.
That's not how it was for me, Ron. I made decent money----but I also worked for it. My shop rate was lower than larger shops, and I dedicated myself to my obligations. It's not always about money, Ron. I can recount more than a few occasions where I underbid a job, but still dedicated myself to completing it as if I was making good money. Some of us work because we're proud of our ability. That's not to say that we don't need money------of course we do-----but I want money I've earned, so I can sleep at night. I'm the kind of guy that walks back in a store and returns a dime when I'm given the wrong change. I respect myself---I am not willing to sell myself for a pittance, nor am I willing to trade my respected name and reputation for a few bucks. No one has ever accused me of taking unearned money. I really like that.
Part of the problem here is that you folks don't stop at earned money and benefits. I don't give a damn how you put a spin on it, when anyone receives unearned pay, someone somewhere is losing money----and will either go out of business, or charge more for their products. Looking at this another way, you can't make enough money to stay ahead of the price increases, for each unearned pay raise will be countered with higher prices. You don't think so? In my lifetime, I've watched an automobile rise from under $2,000, new, to an average of, what, $40,000?. I recall, with fondness, when first class postage was only 3 cents. A post card, including buying the card, was one cent. Look where we are today! Do you feel that unearned wages played a role in it to any degree? I think they did. I've watched prices increase annually, here, with the rise in minimum wage. Those of us on fixed incomes are being squeezed out of the picture. I'll never take that kindly-----I paid my dues and deserve to live in reasonable comfort in retirement. No, I don't buy a new car often. Fact is, I don't own a car, and my newest vehicle is a '99 Dodge truck. We live within our means-----buy things on sale, use coupons, and don't live the good life. We're humble people that have always earned our way and lived within our means. We're not flashy.
Depends. It might be. It also might be a company that is hell bent on closing the doors on anyone making any money on them aside from the investors. I don't like that any better than I like the unions, Ron. I don't like things that are not fair------and not much is these days.
Neither of us can address your particular issue, but I can tell you for sure, the local steam plant closed the door on coal production, which was adjacent to the plant, and is now shipping coal from Wyoming to Washington, because it's far cheaper. I don't think the union was very wise in convincing these guys that they were worth too much money-----they'd have been far better served to have received a realistic pay scale and kept their jobs. Many have had to relocate, while others have gone back to school. Some will land on their feet, while others will live with disrupted lives for the balance.
Again, I can't place blame. I am not privy to the facts of Enron, although it's generally accepted that management was corrupt. I don't agree with that, and don't know many that would, but countering corruption with more corruption isn't the answer, either. I'm also not in favor of CEO's being paid money beyond their worth, Ron. Sadly, I'm unable to make a judgment on what their worth might be, but when a guy is making millions per year, seems to me he's being paid well beyond his worth. Some of that money could go towards lowering prices, so a greater number of people could afford the product, what ever it may be. I'd like to think a CEO earned his/her way, too. I'd suggest that just like I said that union worker should be willing to give back some of their pay when a job runs at a loss, so, too, should a CEO give back the majority of his/her pay when things turn south. Both of us know that's not going to happen-------but I refuse to be a part of corruption just because others are involved. That doesn't give me license----and speaks volumes about the character of those that feel otherwise.
Yep---I couldn't agree more. Fact is, that's why I started my own business. I wanted to be free to pick my hours, I wanted to be free to choose the type of work I ran, and I wanted to be free from a check on Friday afternoon. It takes courage, and it takes a huge amount of dedication and self discipline. It's not for everyone, but I thrived under those conditions, and was almost always unhappy when employed by others. I had to have freedom to do as I pleased, at which time I was at my best. A union would stifle me too much. I know that because I worked in a union shop, and the workers attempted that very thing---regularly. They were, to the man, threatened by anyone that worked an honest day, and in so many words, they said so. It's not for me, Ron, and, truth be told, it wouldn't fit my circumstances, anyway.
So then, Ron, (and dennis), we can get along here----I'm more than willing-----but you have to come to terms that there are folks that don't see the union in the same light you two do. It may have been good for you, and perhaps even made your life better, but the examples I witnessed were very negative in nature, and I see no end. I think if you pay attention, you'll see the day when Boeing does no machining in the US-----they've made great strides towards that right now. Reason? I can't help but think that part of it is that machinists are making well over $60,000/year, and expect more. Their unions hold the company hostage by striking----and delaying shipping dates. I see no difference between doing that and using a gun at the heads of management. I don't agree with the tactic, and find it in keeping with terrorists acts. These people can be replaced by others in other countries-----and will be unless they change their approach to things, but they've been so brain washed into believing that they're indispensable that it's not likely to happen. Only when the last door has closed will they come to understand. Who will be responsible then? Who's fault would it be? The company? I don't think so.
I've been to the auction of one of the facilities already-----it's happening. Imagine a CNC mill that is 125' long, with a 14' wide table. Two of them were a part of the auction in question, along with a huge number of smaller machines. They are already shutting down. Next comes surplus sales.
Be well, Ron.
Harold
And look at the situation the American working man is in now.
But, no doubt, now you'll say that MORE unions would have been better, and it is the fault of the unions there wasn't. LOL
dennis in nca
And that you keep bringing up the word?
And as a good union worker, you probably expect to be paid for it, too.
David
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