Unions

That was GOOD. Got me there Dave. But, as all riggers are pure and free of sin I don't think we need to worry too much.

dennis in nca p.s. Maybe Millrights too.

And yet, if a union and management agree to a contract, you have no trouble complaining about THEIR terms being upheld.

dennis in nca

Yup. You've made labor so expensive for American manufacturers who have to pay for your non-producing brothers, so they've moved your job to China. Good going, you did exactly what happens over and over - work inefficiently enough that the business owners don't want to carry your brother anymore.

There you go trying to speak for me again and doing it poorly. Look.

100 years ago, unions were important and valuable. But think of all the things that couldn't have possibly happened if the union mentality was in place at the time? The whole industrial revolution couldn't have happened. It brought up the conditions that made unions useful and necessary. Conditions got better. Hours got better. Safety got better. Some of this improvement is because of what the unions did...100 years ago. It's sad, really, that something with such useful and noble and important beginnings has now become an entity that wants to force employers to pay unproductive people under the guise of "brotherhood".

I find the formula simple.

Working men + unions = the situation as it is today.

Obviously, the situation today isn't perfect. So whose fault is that?

Steve

***************************************** Harold: I agree that not all men are equal in their abilities, attitudes or desire to produce. Union scale is the minimum I had to pay. That does not mean that I did not pay extra for talent and hard work. Which I did! Sometimes it might be in the form of a bonus, more per hour or offers to work over time. As for myself, I have been bless with some talent and I have been very fortunate. I have always in my in mind felt that 10% of any group (doctors,dentists,auto repairmen,Millwrights) were at the top and 10% were at the bottom. The rest were some place in between. This may have been incorrect but it was part of my philosophy.

I am sure you were in top 10% of your trade.

The company is the final qualifier of the men he hires.

I will always be proud of being a Union Millwright. Millwright Ron

Be Safe and return home to your Family.

Sigh!

Gotcha, dennis. This isn't about you trying to resolve issues----this is about you sticking to pointless subjects that have never been anything to which I alluded--even remotely.

This conversation is now to an end. A wise person told me long ago, "never argue with a fool, for bystanders often can't discern which is which".

We'll talk again, dennis, but it won't be about unions. There's nothing you have to offer that could entice me, and you've done an admirable job of confirming my hunch----they're all about bullshit----dogma, if you will. I live in the real world, where there's no room for such nonsense. I bid you well.

Harold

Geez....!!!

Wouldn't that be a violation of the union concept of equality among workers?

How could you pay more talented, less senior people MORE money than people with higher seniority, and not be in violation of the contract?

It actually sounds just like some of the complaints of unequal treatment registered earlier in this thread by people opposed to unions.....complaints which you brushed aside as coming from uninformed, non-union people.

Even after admitting that you practiced the very things that you told others didn't happen among "equal brothers"?

Well, there's the non-unionized auto manufacturing plant in Spring Hill, Tenn,. for starters.

Dave Hinz wrote in article ...

Or, you could do what the people of my father's generation did, and what I have done to move up in society.....moonlight.

Work from home nights and weekends applying your own skills as a carpenter, plumber, electrician, auto mechanic, etc..

Work nights and weekends in a gas station/convenience store.

Work part-time in a pizza shop, cleaning offices.

Etc., etc., etc.!

Everybody wants to make a comfortable living working 40 hours per week.

Fact is, that is not possible with the skills and knowledge required by many jobs.

Many low-skill/knowledge jobs are currently being overpaid for the skills/knowledge required due to minimum wage laws.

In the same vein, it is absolutely ridiculous to pay $20 per hour plus benefits to someone who attaches a wheel to a car that is moving by on the assembly line. Once you've done the job for a day, there is little more skill/knowledge acquisition needed.

When we use to tour the GM assembly plant in Framingham, Mass. it was common to see "workers" with a magazine open at their station not even paying attention to the task they were performing.

Tell me again about the dedication to quality and throroughness that union workers bring to their jobs.........

Millwright Ron wrote in article ...

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of union terms...

Does the above mean "in force", "enforced" or is it some sort of union contract term incorporating both?

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

dennis in nca

Not all contracts are the same; but you knew that.

dennis in nca

rigger wrote in article ...

Harold's truth comes from experience. It is the best kind.

You, on the other hand, seem to need your truth filtered through union dogma.

Here's some union truth for ya'....

We used to have a teachers' workshop day on the day before school opened every year.

At the end of this workshop, the union was allowed to make its pitch for membership after which we would be sent to our own buildings to prepare for school opening..

Since I had no intention of joining the union, I used to go back to my building at the beginning of the union pitch, and work on whatever needed to be worked on for the opening of school.

One year, I was told by my Director that I "must" stay for the union pitch, because they would be answering questions - especially from non-members.

One question came up, and I raised my hand.

The leader of the local looked at me and said, "I cannot recognize you since you are not a member of the union."

To which I replied, "Then why am I being forced to sit here?"

To which he simply shrugged his shoulders.

I walked out, and went back to my building - as I had for many years before.

Not a single word was said to me regarding me leaving this "important" meeting.

This same "leader" came to our building a few weeks later and, while sitting in our faculty room with a half-dozen of us, stated, "I want 100 percent membership, and I'll come after any non-members with a baseball bat."

I invited him to step outside at that moment to settle things - just him and me, and his bat if he though he wasn't man enough on his own - but he declined with a scarlet face.

I'm proud to say that a fellow teacher came up to me afterward and stated that he was leaning towards joining the union, but he changed his mind when he saw me stand up to the punk who was trying to coerce people with a lot of trash talk......all symbolism, no substance - just like most punk-assed bullies.

So, even though people have not had the "union experience" as members, it doesn't mean that they haven't had experience with the union......not at all.

And, it is arrogant on your part to suggest that one must be or have been a member of a union to be able to speak intelligently about their own experiences with labor organizations.

But that does not say much. As long as you were working to a contract, no strike. Big deal.

When the union is trying to negociate a new contract , and the current contract runs out.......................Gee you don't have a contract, and so you can threaten to strike or actually strike.

So did you ever strike?

Dan

Yes, we all noticed that by reading your posts. That's why this conversation, on my behalf, has come to an end.

Harold

That is so true, and explains why they join unions.

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I do not know what you are talking about ??????

The contract that is negotiated on and agreed too......Is for the minimum pay not maximum pay. If the company wishes to pay more. Why not? If the company wishes to give a check to an employee for 10,000 dollars. Why not? This is an option that any company can do but most do not. Why do you have a problem with that? The wage package is the minimum for all Union Brothers and Sisters.

Most corporate version's are pay the ceo's more money and screw the worker.

Ever week it seems that you hear about some ceo or cfo stealing money from the companies that they work for....

Millwright Ron

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I have never been on strike. Even when our contract had been expired

14 months.

I did walk a picket line once. When we had been locked out. It took a court order for me to be able to retrieve my own personal tools. Our Union did file a grievance with the NLRB and we did win. I am proud that we stood up for our rights.That year the ceo still received his bonus.... When we did return back to work. There were lots of bitter feelings. Families had lost their homes, marriages, cars and their savings.The trust that we thought we had with the company was lost and was never regained. I moved on to greener pastures.

Union Millwright Ron

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Thanks "*", that was so refreshing:

And then:

Yep, you sure have me and the entire union situation figured out to a "t", don't you? I guess that makes you the "right one": who can argue with logic like that? I give up due to your and Harold's masterful understanding gained through your years of study. Good for you.

dennis in nca